Dr. Marcus Eriksen 5 Gyres Institute: Plastic Pollution in Our Oceans, What's Being Done & the 5th & Final United Nations Treaty Session on Plastics Nov 25, 2024 South Korea

Plastic Pollution in our oceans, and on our planet - what is being done about it? Hear from Dr. Marcus Eriksen, a local Sea Rancher, marine scientist, veteran, and author who co-founded (with life partner Anna Cummings) 5 Gyres Institute which is studying  the impact of plastics on the world's oceans, & Leap Lab, a center for art, science and self-reliance. Marcus lectures on marine conservation, breaking down the complexity of objectives and identifying common ground and actionable solutions. He's led more than 20 expeditions through the 5 Gyres Institute exploring and researching the world's oceans. And as co-founder of Leap Lab, he also lectures on biophilia, and the role of art, science and self-reliance to achieve urban resilience. 

Dr. Eriksen attended the 4th UN Treaty session in Canada and will be attending the 5th and final negotiation session for the UN treaty on plastic pollution in South Korea from Nov 25-Dec 1, 2024.  

This is an extremely important treaty. He says, "If we get it right, we set wheels in motion to decrease the harm from plastics. If not, then industry gets permission to pollute for decades to come."

See the video version on KGUA's YouTube channel https://youtube.com/live/PSuYDHMqtxY

For more information on 5 Gyres Institute & Leap Lab, see https://www.5gyres.org/

Thanks for

Planet Centric Media (non-profit)
Media for a Healthier Planet: Elevating The Interconnectedness of Life & Value of Natural Resources.

Mendonoma Whale & Seal Study
Founded by Scott & Tree Mercer to document the occurrence, diversity, & behavior of marine mammals.

Sea Storm Studios, Inc.
An audio/visual production company in the Sea Ranch, CA (US)

KGUA Public Radio Sonoma & Mendocino CA
KGUA 88.3FM is an independent public media station located in Gualala, CA on the Northern CA coast.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

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Welcome to Resilient Earth Radio,

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Earth Radio, a project of Planet Centric

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Media

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This is KGUA in Gualala, CA 88.3 FM.

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I'm Leigh Anne Lindsey, your host.

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With me are my co-host and co-producers,
Scott and Tree (Theresa) Mercer

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of the Mendonoma Whale and Seal Study.

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We have with us a Sea Rancher 
(The Sea Ranch N. Sonoma coast), Marcus Ericksen.

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He's a marine scientist
and co-founder of 5 Gyres

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Institute, studying
plastic pollution in the world's oceans.

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He's co-founder of Leap Lab,
a center for art, science

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and self-reliance,
a veteran and an author.

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He lectures on marine conservation,
especially the impact of plastics

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on the world's oceans,
breaking down the complexity of objectives

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and identifying common ground
and actionable solutions.

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He's led more than 20 expeditions
through the five Gyres Institute,

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exploring and researching the world's
oceans as the co-founder of Leap Lab.

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He also lectures on biophilia
and the role of art,

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science and self-reliance
to achieve urban resilience.

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And today, we're going to be talking about

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microfibers and biodegradable plastics.

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We're going to discuss those along with
something that he has been involved with.

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And we want to learn a lot more about.

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And he's going to discuss the fifth
and final negotiation session

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for the UN Treaty on Plastic Pollution,

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the final negotiation at the UN.

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And this is extremely important.

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Thanks for joining us here on KGUA Marcus.

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Good morning.

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Good morning, and thank you for having me
on this program to talk about

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such an important issue of ocean plastics
and plastic pollution in general.

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So thank you.

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Absolutely. Yes.

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Where else are you located?

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Just north of Los
Angeles, in Ventura County.

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Yes. A little town called Santa Paula.

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Well, Marcus, why don't we get

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into what you'd like to discuss first?

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Is that going to be on the microfibres
and biodegradable plastics,

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or do you want to just give us an overview
of what you've been doing?

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I can begin with our research,
the global work we did

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and how, you know, this issue has sort of
changed over the last 20 years.

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I've been involved in it.

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You know, like any environmental issue
in the beginning.

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There's a lot of people that really doubt
that it's actually a problem.

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And then and that's
why the experience 20 years ago

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and we were one of the earliest
organizations, the first organization

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to sail around the world surveying each
of the five garbage patches on the planet.

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The most folks are familiar
with the North Pacific Great Pacific Gyre.

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There are actually five
of these subtropical gyres areas

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where trash accumulates.

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We went through all of them, you know,
more than between 10 and 20 years ago.

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We were launching expeditions.

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And it's been interesting
watching the issue evolve

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from the initial public outcry
and the initial science.

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And now we're at the United Nations,
where they're debating a global treaty.

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So I can talk about that,
that sort of journey

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and sort of some of the hurdles
and obstacles along the way

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from stakeholders
that have their own subjective objectives

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that get in the way
of what I would call progress.

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I am a marine scientist.

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I'm also a Gulf War veteran.

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If you remember the burning oil
wells in Kuwait, I was in the Marines

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and I was there, and that was a huge
wake up call epiphany for me,

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this environmental, this resource war
and the environmental destruction

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that came from that.

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And I kind of pivoted my work
to think I'd signed up

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to defend my country as a young American,
thinking to serve in some aspect.

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And as I began to understand the world,
I realized

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that defending people on the planet
is a far richer, more rewarding task.

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And I've committed my life to doing that.

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I grew up in Louisiana on the
on the bank of the Mississippi River,

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a little town called Metairie
outside New Orleans.

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And I'd always dreamed of rafting
the Mississippi, like a lot of kids do.

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So actually, in 2003,
when I finished my PhD,

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I had I had no more schooling to do.

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I had no home, no car, no

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car, not I had no girlfriend, no house.

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So it's a perfect time to build a raft.

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So yeah, I built myself a raft.

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Ironically, out of 232
two liter soda bottles.

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And I had a friend
drop me off in Lake Itasca, Minnesota.

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And that began a five month

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odyssey going from Minnesota
down to the Gulf of Mexico.

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Pass my hometown out to the open sea.

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And I fell in love with the river.

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I really fell in love with nature,
and it was good for me as a veteran

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to come back to something,
something that's very physical.

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Being in the environment
every day, every night.

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But what I saw, well,
I begin to fall in love with the river.

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I saw this endless trail of plastic
trash in America's greatest watershed

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that drains 42% of the United States,
all or part of 31 states,

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all coming down this one
funnel past New Orleans.

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Endless trail trash.

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I could have always looked to the left

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or right in Illinois, along the coast of
Iowa, down through Arkansas, Mississippi.

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I could always see plastic trash

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as if our greatest export to the world
is the junk leaving our rivers.

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It hit me as just insanely wrong

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that we do this, that we had this material

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and that against plastic
because it served so many other purposes.

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It doesn't break. It
transports well, it's lightweight,

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comes in all kinds of colors.
It's moldable material.

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But to make single use stuff
that gets thrown away

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and all the lies and inefficiencies
around recycling.

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It just struck me as as a travesty.

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So when I got off there,

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the river is now in 2004, I got off
the river, came back to Los Angeles,

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and I'd heard about this man,
Captain Charles Moore,

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that discovered the Great Pacific
Garbage Patch.

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I was like, okay, this
this guy's in Long Beach.

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He's not too far from me.

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So I had my raft on a trailer.

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I drove to his house

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and introduced myself.

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We got to talk and he was.

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He was tickled by the idea
that I had this raft and we talked.

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In three weeks I had a job.

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I ran their research education department,
got out to the North Pacific Gyre myself

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about, less than a year later
with Captain Charles, more on his vessel.

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And I was blown away.

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There wasn't a mountain of trash.

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There was an island of trash.

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You can go get and clean up,
and you're done with it.

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That's not the reality at all.

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It was a soup.

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Or I'd say a smog of small plastic
particles.

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Every time we did in the water,
we'd find little small particles.

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These microplastics, these things
as big as a grain of rice or smaller.

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And there were trillions of them
across the oceans.

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There were inside
many of the fish that we,

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that we sampled and dissect
look in their guts.

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But there was also big things like old

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fishing nets and fishing buoys
and occasional bottle caps.

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And so forth,
and you find horrific stories of animals

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getting entangled in all that large,
those netting and so forth in the ropes.

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That's something that Scott and Tree
can talk a lot about as well.

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We were just talking

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with the debris program manager
at the California Coastal Commission,

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Eben Schwartz. Yeah.

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And he too, had brought up Charles Moore.

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I think, Scott,
you had mentioned something about that.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah.

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The name comes up
fairly often, more and more

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so, but yeah, I'd like to know
more about Mr.

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Moore and, what he's up to now.

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He's a personal friend.

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He lives.

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I mean, I'm
only an hour away from his doorstep.

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I worked for five years with him,
and he's.

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He's an amazing human being.

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He also established another nonprofit
called Long Beach Organics.

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Turning empty lots into gardens.

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He's a pretty amazing human being.

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But five years working with him,
we had a heart to heart.

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And I said, you know,
there are other gyres to explore.

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There's other spots
for trash in the ocean.

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But he had a lot of research
going on the North Pacific.

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And he said, look, I'm tied up here.

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So I began going around the world with my

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at that time, fiancée, Anna Cummins.

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We had met in 2007.

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In January 2008,

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we both boarded the ship with Captain
Charles Moore on his research vessel.

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I knew she was the one, so I found some
old fishing line floating in the ocean.

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I made it ring and I proposed on the boat
on February 14th, 2008, and,

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she accepted, but I said,
but I want to build the mega raft.

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I am a river raft.

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I want to build
like a Kon-Tiki out of plastic.

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And she agreed.

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So the summer 2008, we landed the boat.

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We had two and a half months until June

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1st, 2008, and I said, let's get to work,
let's build a boat.

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So we got another friend, Joe Pascal.

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Then we got 15,000 bottles.

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We found 20 broken sailboats
and cut the masts off.

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Use them as logs to make a deck
like tie them up together.

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And then went to the coolest junkyard
and found an old airplane, a Cessna 310.

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An aircraft took the fuselage,
the wings and mounted

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that on this raft spray painted
junk on the broken sail we used.

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And Captain Charles Moore dragged us
60 miles offshore off the coast.

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Long beach.

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I thought I might see Anna in Hawaii
three weeks later.

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Three months later,
we hobbled into Waikiki.

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I'd lost about 20 pounds, but it worked.

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In terms of a PR campaign.

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I mean, we had no motor, we had no support
boat, just riding the currents.

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I knew the currents and wind
would take us there,

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and we experienced a lot of microplastics
along the way.

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So we were communicating via
satellite phone and really low

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resolution videos like 50 kilobyte videos,
reel low res.

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But it was a great story
in the context of this rafting adventure.

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But we followed
that expedition with research.

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We began chartering larger vessels,

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bringing on crew,
and dragging our nets around the world.

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We probably did close
to 100,000 miles of sailing,

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the equivalent of going around the world
twice went to Antarctica, the Arctic,

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the Bay of Bengal, multiple back and forth
like the South Atlantic.

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We went from South America to Africa, back
and forth three times across the North

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Pacific, three times went to Japan
and came back to Hawaii.

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It was a lot of different voyages,
and we published that research.

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It was about 5 trillion particles

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of trash back in 2014.

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We reassessed,
we doubled, almost tripled our data,

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and just last year published a paper.

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We're now over 170
trillion particles of plastics.

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And we anticipate, based on our modeling,
our modeling of the data,

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that it's going to get much worse
very soon

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if we don't have some really good
policies, really good innovators

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creating reuse and refill stations
and biomaterials,

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if we don't get it right,
it's going to get really bad very soon.

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You're hitting right on.

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What I have been harping on for
a long time is that we need manufacturers

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to drive this from the top down
so that consumer cars have better choices,

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and they need to take more responsibility

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like they do in Germany
or they were doing in Germany.

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But it's got to come from them.

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The solutions and the clean up too.

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Yes, you're absolutely right.

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Top down and bottom up.

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So you Germany is actually a good example
of something called the green dot

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green dot program, where you bring in
even your plastic bottles

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and they'll mark them how many times
they've been refilled and reused of.

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They have a really good refilling
reuse system.

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The recycling is efficient.

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They don't allow products that are not
recyclable to exist in society.

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They had this law, too, that you could
actually go into the stores and take

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the wrapping off, and the manufacturers
had to pick it up and recycling.

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Actually some stores I remember
right in Los Angeles

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did a D packaging station
right by the door.

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They said,
we don't package everything we sell.

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If you don't have the packaging, feel free
to leave it here and we'll deal with it.

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That was a great program.

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I think every department store
should have that, even grocery stores.

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And I got to tell you,
I do that at Trader Joe's.

00;13;14;20 - 00;13;15;28
They're so overly packaged.

00;13;15;28 - 00;13;19;17
The plastics, I'll unload the plastic
trash there sometimes in the parking lot.

00;13;20;00 - 00;13;22;17
Really? That's a good idea.

00;13;22;17 - 00;13;23;01
Yeah.

00;13;23;01 - 00;13;27;02
Bottom up, you know, get smarter
packaging and better systems

00;13;27;02 - 00;13;30;02
of waste collection and sorting.

00;13;30;07 - 00;13;31;24
Sorting at the curbside.

00;13;31;24 - 00;13;34;18
I do talk with a lot of people
about curbside

00;13;34;18 - 00;13;37;18
recycling and how to manage materials.

00;13;37;20 - 00;13;39;29
It's very complicated.

00;13;39;29 - 00;13;42;29
Every state, even
every city, does it differently.

00;13;42;29 - 00;13;45;20
There isn't consistency
across the country.

00;13;45;20 - 00;13;49;17
There's a lot of allowance for things
that are not very recyclable.

00;13;50;01 - 00;13;52;28
For example,
one of my big pet peeves are those

00;13;52;28 - 00;13;55;28
little stupid
plastic stickers on fruits and vegetables.

00;13;56;15 - 00;13;59;04
Talk about messing up your compost.

00;13;59;04 - 00;14;02;03
I was talking to a big company
in Washington DC.

00;14;02;03 - 00;14;05;15
In Maryland,
they do it the biggest composter

00;14;05;29 - 00;14;08;29
for food waste and yard clippings.

00;14;09;03 - 00;14;10;19
And they said that is the

00;14;11;17 - 00;14;12;19
the number one

00;14;12;19 - 00;14;15;19
plastic
item that contaminates their soils.

00;14;15;19 - 00;14;18;19
But a good thing is
there's a EU law from Europe

00;14;19;02 - 00;14;22;02
about those stickers
that's trickling to the global economy.

00;14;22;06 - 00;14;25;09
So you might see them banned worldwide
next five years

00;14;25;09 - 00;14;28;09
or so.

00;14;29;19 - 00;14;30;23
We'll be right back

00;14;30;23 - 00;14;33;23
right after this special message.

00;14;37;13 - 00;14;38;13
Hi, I'm Pam

00;14;38;13 - 00;14;41;13
Hudson, owner and broker of Pamela
Hudson Real Estate.

00;14;41;24 - 00;14;44;24
And I'm Tom Allman, realtor of Pamela
Hudson Real Estate.

00;14;44;27 - 00;14;48;10
We're excited to share with our community
the new rules and regulations

00;14;48;10 - 00;14;49;26
having to do with commissions.

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We are experts at representing sellers
and buyers,

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and have confidence that the new structure
will keep our clients protected.

00;14;57;21 - 00;15;00;14
Our 35 years of experience
and completion of thousands

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00;15;03;16 - 00;15;07;18
We can be reached at 707937 3900.

00;15;07;29 - 00;15;10;10
We're located on Main Street in Mendocino.

00;15;10;10 - 00;15;13;24
Remember, no one knows our county
like we know our county.

00;15;14;07 - 00;15;19;28
California diary license number 01036573.

00;15;20;08 - 00;15;23;28
Energy Ethics Experience 
Pamela Hudson, Real Estate.

00;15;40;12 - 00;15;43;12
Welcome back to Resilient Earth Radio.

00;15;47;09 - 00;15;47;24
You're listening

00;15;47;24 - 00;15;50;25
to marine scientist
and co-founder of the five Gyres

00;15;50;25 - 00;15;54;24
Institute that studies
plastic pollution in the world's oceans.

00;15;55;09 - 00;15;57;11
He's also the co-founder of Leap Lab.

00;15;57;11 - 00;16;01;12
And Marcus, you are with us on Resilient Earth Radio.

00;16;01;12 - 00;16;04;17
You can find our podcast
on almost any platform

00;16;04;17 - 00;16;09;01
from Apple to Amazon, Spotify,
YouTube, SoundCloud.

00;16;09;10 - 00;16;13;22
This is Scott and Tree Mercer
sitting with me here today

00;16;13;26 - 00;16;16;22
from the Mendonoma Whale and Seal Study.

00;16;16;22 - 00;16;22;04
They have dedicated their lives to the
oceans, to the marine life within them.

00;16;22;04 - 00;16;26;25
And you were talking earlier about that
Cessna 310?

00;16;26;25 - 00;16;29;01
Well, I'm a pilot, for one thing.

00;16;29;01 - 00;16;32;07
I was flying quite a bit, so I get it.

00;16;32;18 - 00;16;35;20
And all the traveling
that you did around the world's oceans.

00;16;35;29 - 00;16;39;01
You wrote a book out of that called
Junk Craft.

00;16;39;01 - 00;16;41;04
Talk a little bit about that too.

00;16;41;04 - 00;16;44;04
The book that you wrote from
that experience?

00;16;44;12 - 00;16;46;11
Sure, sure. You know,
I kept a good journal.

00;16;46;11 - 00;16;49;14
It's the personal experience
of being on the open ocean

00;16;49;14 - 00;16;52;14
for three months on a raft with no motor.

00;16;52;15 - 00;16;54;26
My friend Joe
and I, we took turns on watch.

00;16;54;26 - 00;16;55;23
Of course I did.

00;16;55;23 - 00;16;58;05
Eight hours from 1 a.m. to 9 a.m..

00;16;58;05 - 00;17;00;15
That was my nightshift, I loved it.

00;17;00;15 - 00;17;02;27
I had the whole sky to myself.

00;17;02;27 - 00;17;07;11
I remember once I a storm came behind me
and just soaked me to the bone.

00;17;07;11 - 00;17;10;26
The wind up to 40 knots,
spun the raft around.

00;17;11;09 - 00;17;14;09
The storm passed and it was a full moon.

00;17;14;21 - 00;17;16;02
So the full moon is behind me

00;17;16;02 - 00;17;19;14
and it lights up the sail
and hear the clouds in front of me.

00;17;19;24 - 00;17;23;12
And a rainbow forms,
but in shades of gray in some color.

00;17;23;19 - 00;17;24;19
I almost brought tears.

00;17;24;19 - 00;17;26;01
My eyes was so beautiful.

00;17;26;01 - 00;17;26;28
I'd like 2 a.m.

00;17;26;28 - 00;17;29;22
to see a rainbow in the in the sky.

00;17;29;22 - 00;17;31;15
Very unique experience.

00;17;31;15 - 00;17;33;25
I had those experiences all the time.

00;17;33;25 - 00;17;36;10
You know, like I said,
I fell in love with the Mississippi River.

00;17;36;10 - 00;17;40;22
When I rafted that,
I thought of the Pacific Ocean even more.

00;17;40;23 - 00;17;42;25
You know, spending time in nature.

00;17;42;25 - 00;17;46;06
The bond, the very natural, you know, bond

00;17;46;06 - 00;17;49;06
we have, which we call biophilia,
our affinity for life.

00;17;49;10 - 00;17;53;15
It grows stronger and deeper,
and the need to protect it grows stronger.

00;17;53;26 - 00;17;54;28
You mentioned leap lab.

00;17;54;28 - 00;17;57;06
Leap lab is gonna be a science center
we're creating.

00;17;57;06 - 00;18;00;05
We have the five year institute
doing plastics research.

00;18;00;05 - 00;18;04;04
Leap lab is a science center bringing
kids out in nature to experience that.

00;18;04;13 - 00;18;06;10
That love of other life trees.

00;18;06;10 - 00;18;11;00
A teacher to from long ago on Long Island,
a biology teacher.

00;18;11;05 - 00;18;13;06
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

00;18;13;06 - 00;18;17;18
Whatever we can do to
for the younger generation to inspire them

00;18;17;18 - 00;18;21;28
and and first of all,
to educate them about the environment

00;18;21;28 - 00;18;24;25
and how important it is to preserve these

00;18;24;25 - 00;18;29;15
very delicate ecosystems
that exist on your raft.

00;18;29;24 - 00;18;35;08
Did you collect plastics onto your raft,
or was that just a transport vessel?

00;18;35;22 - 00;18;37;09
I did, I did some research.

00;18;37;09 - 00;18;40;09
Things were really hectic the first week.

00;18;40;09 - 00;18;42;05
We actually almost sank on day three.

00;18;42;05 - 00;18;42;20
Oh, no.

00;18;42;20 - 00;18;46;03
So all my research equipment,
I had to send it back.

00;18;46;06 - 00;18;49;10
We had one boat
come and bring me, I needed glue.

00;18;49;17 - 00;18;52;14
I need glue to glue
the caps on the bottles.

00;18;52;14 - 00;18;54;18
It's a crazy story
about why we're sinking.

00;18;54;18 - 00;18;56;27
So I didn't have my research equipment.

00;18;56;27 - 00;18;59;05
We did get the repairs I needed.

00;18;59;05 - 00;19;00;28
While we're at sea, actually.

00;19;00;28 - 00;19;04;22
And they came to find me and spent a day
putting caps back on bottles,

00;19;04;22 - 00;19;06;27
gluing them on so we could still float.

00;19;06;27 - 00;19;07;23
And I kept going.

00;19;07;23 - 00;19;10;19
And then it got really serious,
and I thought I might not see her again.

00;19;10;19 - 00;19;12;19
They got really serious. Really fast.

00;19;12;19 - 00;19;15;26
But once you had things stable,
you know, every day I'd empty the water

00;19;15;26 - 00;19;18;10
out of ten bottles.
That was my goal. Empty the water.

00;19;18;10 - 00;19;21;12
Keep this thing afloat,
but also try and do some research.

00;19;21;12 - 00;19;23;05
So I made Annette had time to.

00;19;23;05 - 00;19;25;01
So Annette and I had some materials.

00;19;25;01 - 00;19;26;27
The webbing and the mesh.

00;19;26;27 - 00;19;31;12
So I made my own, my own trowel
to skim the ocean surface.

00;19;31;25 - 00;19;35;09
And we were collecting samples and,
you know, I knew where the hotspots were.

00;19;35;10 - 00;19;37;24
As we're approaching
getting closer to Hawaii.

00;19;37;24 - 00;19;40;24
We're on the southern edge
of the accumulation zone.

00;19;40;29 - 00;19;42;28
And what I saw, my nets is the same thing.

00;19;42;28 - 00;19;46;04
More abundant microplastics
as we made our way.

00;19;46;14 - 00;19;47;26
We find a few big things here.

00;19;47;26 - 00;19;49;00
And they're broken crates.

00;19;49;00 - 00;19;50;25
We saw a couple boys.

00;19;50;25 - 00;19;54;16
But, you know, again, you look at
the garbage patch, it's pretty clear.

00;19;54;24 - 00;19;58;05
You look out across, you might see
a floating beyond the horizon.

00;19;58;09 - 00;20;02;11
When you drag your net,
that's when you see that smog of the sea.

00;20;02;19 - 00;20;04;28
And it's an every time you drop your net.

00;20;04;28 - 00;20;05;23
Every time.

00;20;05;23 - 00;20;11;15
That's why, you know, all these myths of
ocean cleanup are just a huge distraction.

00;20;11;23 - 00;20;16;22
You've got to work way upstream
at the beginning of the problem.

00;20;17;10 - 00;20;20;15
So that's why I'm glad you mentioned
my book, Junk Raft.

00;20;20;25 - 00;20;22;14
It's an adventure story,

00;20;22;14 - 00;20;25;29
and I did collect some data,
but I really dive deep in solutions.

00;20;26;14 - 00;20;30;02
So I'm glad that you mentioned,
you know, it's up to from the top down.

00;20;30;03 - 00;20;33;19
It's up to the makers of plastics,
the makers of products to get smart.

00;20;34;03 - 00;20;38;16
And it's up to us from the bottom
up to be very cognizant

00;20;38;16 - 00;20;41;16
of what you're consuming
and what you're throwing away.

00;20;41;17 - 00;20;47;10
And does your city have the right system
to manage all that material efficiently?

00;20;47;15 - 00;20;51;02
So we're not clogging
landfills on on ten year timelines,

00;20;51;12 - 00;20;54;04
which happened in LA,
actually one landfill

00;20;54;04 - 00;20;57;04
filled ten years ahead of schedule
because there's so much trash.

00;20;57;10 - 00;21;00;07
So yeah, I think if we can
diminish solutions, you know,

00;21;00;07 - 00;21;01;20
we did our ocean research.

00;21;01;20 - 00;21;03;13
We documented that

00;21;03;13 - 00;21;06;20
at some point the world kind of knew
there's trash in the oceans.

00;21;06;29 - 00;21;11;25
The word got out enough research
by I'd say by 2013, 2015

00;21;12;12 - 00;21;16;20
we pretty much knew about the problem
now was looking at solutions

00;21;17;19 - 00;21;20;18
and also doing research closer to land.

00;21;21;02 - 00;21;26;04
So like in 2013, with a colleague,
Sherry Mason, we surveyed the Great Lakes.

00;21;26;23 - 00;21;29;20
We're like,
okay, in the middle of the ocean,

00;21;29;20 - 00;21;33;16
I could bring a jar of microplastics
famili Ocean of Pacific.

00;21;33;29 - 00;21;34;20
And I did this.

00;21;34;20 - 00;21;38;06
I brought to the CEO of was a company.

00;21;38;25 - 00;21;41;15
I think the second 
that was Procter and Gamble,

00;21;41;15 - 00;21;44;28
a big company, little company,
80 billion net sales company.

00;21;45;00 - 00;21;46;29
And I brought the ocean sample.

00;21;46;29 - 00;21;49;14
And the CEO said, well,

00;21;49;14 - 00;21;51;26
I can't say that those are my products.

00;21;51;26 - 00;21;54;05
Show me a tide bottle and we'll talk.

00;21;54;05 - 00;21;57;17
So that was very enlightening
that, you know, if you want to identify,

00;21;57;21 - 00;22;01;08
if you want to point to a country
or a company

00;22;01;08 - 00;22;04;17
as the culprit, the middle ocean
is not going to help you out.

00;22;04;29 - 00;22;05;26
You got to get on land.

00;22;05;26 - 00;22;11;29
So when up up the Great Lakes and we begin
to find a lot of microplastic, in fact,

00;22;11;29 - 00;22;16;19
your little small little beads,
we found thousands of these little beads.

00;22;17;01 - 00;22;18;17
I'm sure you've heard of microbeads.

00;22;18;17 - 00;22;23;08
Yes, but, you know, back in 2013,
no one knew what microbeads.

00;22;24;07 - 00;22;25;23
So I was able to take those

00;22;25;23 - 00;22;28;28
microbeads and I could match them
to consumer products.

00;22;28;28 - 00;22;32;19
Mostly facial cleansers
on the on the shelves of stores.

00;22;32;23 - 00;22;34;11
Facial cleansers.

00;22;34;11 - 00;22;37;17
I've heard that on
some of the most remote islands,

00;22;37;18 - 00;22;41;03
there are microbeads
just in the dirt in the air there.

00;22;41;06 - 00;22;42;05
And oh yes,

00;22;42;05 - 00;22;47;02
there's also the Octo group, the open
communications for the ocean Group.

00;22;47;02 - 00;22;51;06
They've got a great plastics
listserv, and scientists

00;22;51;06 - 00;22;56;07
from all over the world
contribute information to that listserv.

00;22;56;07 - 00;22;59;08
So if anybody's interested,
check that out too.

00;22;59;10 - 00;23;03;06
Octo Octo group, back to you, Marcus.

00;23;03;06 - 00;23;06;08
In. You were saying
about these microbeads.

00;23;06;19 - 00;23;06;26
Yeah.

00;23;06;26 - 00;23;11;23
So, you know, I was always thinking,
I should say always.

00;23;11;23 - 00;23;15;12
I learned from this experience
that having microplastics in the oceans

00;23;15;17 - 00;23;18;17
doesn't drive change. It drives awareness.

00;23;18;17 - 00;23;21;04
And it drives a lot of research
on the impact.

00;23;21;04 - 00;23;24;08
To drive change, you've got to point
to a country or a company.

00;23;24;18 - 00;23;27;16
So we did that when we found
the microbeads in the Great Lakes,

00;23;27;16 - 00;23;30;07
we along with a lot of organizations,

00;23;30;07 - 00;23;33;06
they are we all realized, okay,
this is something we can solve.

00;23;33;08 - 00;23;34;21
We know where it came from.

00;23;34;21 - 00;23;36;23
We know which countries are responsible.

00;23;36;23 - 00;23;40;01
We know which companies
because it matches products from

00;23;40;01 - 00;23;43;01
Johnson Johnson and Unilever and others.

00;23;43;11 - 00;23;45;19
And we have the research to back it up.

00;23;45;19 - 00;23;49;10
So I published the paper and then,
we with others

00;23;49;10 - 00;23;52;10
create
a huge coalition, over 50 organizations.

00;23;52;28 - 00;23;56;05
We had lots of films
being made and lots of media to share.

00;23;56;15 - 00;23;58;11
Tulane Law School in New Orleans.

00;23;58;11 - 00;24;02;20
They dedicated a quarterly journal
to microbeads and microplastics,

00;24;02;25 - 00;24;05;25
and they also wrote sampled legislation.

00;24;05;28 - 00;24;09;04
So suddenly we had the legislative stuff
lined up.

00;24;09;14 - 00;24;12;14
We had the awareness campaign lined up.

00;24;12;26 - 00;24;13;20
Two U.S.

00;24;13;20 - 00;24;17;07
senators brought this sample legislation
to Obama's

00;24;17;07 - 00;24;20;07
desk in 2015, and he signed it.

00;24;20;07 - 00;24;23;07
The 2015 microbeads Free Waters Act.

00;24;23;12 - 00;24;26;12
We went from science to a solution
in two years.

00;24;26;25 - 00;24;29;25
It's kind of a unicorn for that to happen.

00;24;30;05 - 00;24;34;05
And again, it was a large coalition of
people all coming together.

00;24;35;05 - 00;24;37;22
You remember someone asked me,
what can the individual do?

00;24;37;22 - 00;24;39;25
I always say, just get organized.

00;24;39;25 - 00;24;43;17
You're ten times stronger when two people
get together in that right direction.

00;24;43;27 - 00;24;45;28
I always say that.

00;24;45;28 - 00;24;50;07
So leaning into to solutions,
trying to find out.

00;24;50;07 - 00;24;52;29
Okay, the ocean, plastics,
we know they're out there.

00;24;52;29 - 00;24;55;09
What can we do way upstream?

00;24;55;09 - 00;24;58;09
There are a lot of innovators
coming to the table.

00;24;58;24 - 00;25;02;24
Or the last 20 years when I first began
talking about the issue.

00;25;03;06 - 00;25;06;27
A lot of universities doubted us
marine science institutions

00;25;06;27 - 00;25;08;18
like Scripps and Woods Hole.

00;25;08;18 - 00;25;11;22
We're not sure about the amount of trash
in the oceans.

00;25;11;22 - 00;25;13;10
They hadn't seen themselves.

00;25;13;10 - 00;25;16;16
We had industry coming out strong saying,
no, no, no, not a problem at all.

00;25;16;17 - 00;25;18;19
Forget this plastics problem.

00;25;18;19 - 00;25;21;06
And then we had public outcry.

00;25;21;06 - 00;25;24;18
Then within a few years,
you had policymakers saying,

00;25;24;18 - 00;25;25;27
okay, what do we do about this?

00;25;25;27 - 00;25;27;09
And I spoke at so many city

00;25;27;09 - 00;25;30;27
councils, grassroots organizations,
wanting to get a handle on this.

00;25;31;10 - 00;25;34;26
Then the big institutions, Scripps
had their own expedition, Woods

00;25;34;26 - 00;25;36;11
Hole launch theirs.

00;25;36;11 - 00;25;38;28
Their university programs exists now.

00;25;38;28 - 00;25;43;03
Then industry got really smart and began
trying to unravel

00;25;43;03 - 00;25;47;07
all these bans happening in cities
across the country and California.

00;25;47;07 - 00;25;49;07
Over 100 cities banned plastic bags.

00;25;49;07 - 00;25;50;26
And the governor said, okay, I hear you.

00;25;51;26 - 00;25;54;27
The statewide ban in the street got smart.

00;25;54;27 - 00;25;57;10
And what they began doing is

00;25;57;10 - 00;25;59;17
telling state legislatures

00;25;59;17 - 00;26;02;17
that you can't have these city plastic bag
bans.

00;26;02;17 - 00;26;05;01
It's got to be a state level
decision stop.

00;26;05;01 - 00;26;08;01
That's municipal level policy.

00;26;08;06 - 00;26;11;06
And that was a way
to kill the grassroots movement.

00;26;11;10 - 00;26;12;18
So industry got smart.

00;26;12;18 - 00;26;14;27
And they're still trying to do
this. It's called preemption.

00;26;14;27 - 00;26;18;21
If your state has preemption
you got to unravel that because it is

00;26;18;21 - 00;26;22;28
Anti-Democracy doesn't allow small towns,
small communities

00;26;23;15 - 00;26;26;20
to get rid of the materials
that cost their taxpayers

00;26;27;00 - 00;26;29;24
tons of money and cleanup and so forth.

00;26;29;24 - 00;26;32;11
Well, this is what we like talking about
on Resilient Earth

00;26;32;11 - 00;26;35;24
radio is critical issues,
but positive actions.

00;26;36;01 - 00;26;37;26
What are people doing?

00;26;37;26 - 00;26;40;27
What is being done
and how can people get involved?

00;26;41;04 - 00;26;41;20
That's it.

00;26;41;20 - 00;26;43;21
You just you're right on the mark.

00;26;43;21 - 00;26;46;14
So continue on what you were saying.

00;26;46;14 - 00;26;47;13
And the involvement.

00;26;47;13 - 00;26;50;13
This is where it's really getting good.

00;26;50;20 - 00;26;53;13
You know, after 20 years
watching this issue, the word is out.

00;26;53;13 - 00;26;55;07
The world is paying attention.

00;26;55;07 - 00;27;00;21
And the innovation and entrepreneurship
has come to the table.

00;27;00;28 - 00;27;06;00
Now you've got a lot of smaller
organizations, small companies and NGOs.

00;27;06;00 - 00;27;07;15
And also there's one

00;27;07;15 - 00;27;11;01
group called Break Free from plastic
that has organized worldwide.

00;27;11;14 - 00;27;14;20
Worldwide NGOs
join this massive coalition,

00;27;14;20 - 00;27;16;10
the Plastic Pollution Coalition.

00;27;16;10 - 00;27;17;21
Break free from plastic.

00;27;17;21 - 00;27;21;23
So the world's getting organized,
and then innovators and entrepreneurs

00;27;21;23 - 00;27;24;24
are stepping up to the table
and are offering solutions that work.

00;27;25;09 - 00;27;28;09
There are refill and reuse stations

00;27;28;09 - 00;27;31;10
popping up in cities across the country.

00;27;31;25 - 00;27;33;24
It is phenomenal.

00;27;33;24 - 00;27;35;24
You can go anywhere
and find a refill station.

00;27;35;24 - 00;27;37;14
Just bring your own containers.

00;27;37;14 - 00;27;38;20
I go to sprouts sometimes,

00;27;38;20 - 00;27;42;06
my own containers for nuts
and seeds and grains and so forth.

00;27;42;15 - 00;27;45;01
A lot of that is happening more and more.

00;27;45;01 - 00;27;48;01
I found one
company is a mobile refill station.

00;27;48;03 - 00;27;51;15
Actually, I have a big truck,
and you walk out your front door

00;27;51;15 - 00;27;56;23
and you go to the tap for shampoo or
detergent for grains, for beans, whatever.

00;27;56;24 - 00;27;59;08
It's so cool. I love that.

00;27;59;08 - 00;28;02;29
That's pretty remote up here on the coast
where we are.

00;28;03;13 - 00;28;05;21
Yeah. So the innovation is there.

00;28;05;21 - 00;28;07;13
And you've got cities.

00;28;07;13 - 00;28;09;28
Some cities are defying this preemption
bill.

00;28;09;28 - 00;28;14;17
Like, I know in Colorado they were able
to unravel their preemption bill.

00;28;15;03 - 00;28;18;02
And if you try to put a ban on bans.

00;28;18;02 - 00;28;20;20
But I think it was Denver
and a couple other cities said, you know,

00;28;20;20 - 00;28;21;29
we're not going to comply.

00;28;21;29 - 00;28;24;15
We're going to ban
this and let's go to court.

00;28;24;15 - 00;28;26;05
And they did. And they won.

00;28;26;05 - 00;28;29;09
There are pathways to unravel preemption.

00;28;29;09 - 00;28;32;18
That's the biggest threat to,
you know, local cities taking action.

00;28;32;24 - 00;28;34;27
I'm glad you. Brought.
So you've got the innovators.

00;28;34;27 - 00;28;36;14
You got the entrepreneurs.

00;28;36;14 - 00;28;41;10
You've got NGOs who are acting in cities
and they're organizing internationally.

00;28;42;04 - 00;28;44;22
Now on the policy front.

00;28;44;22 - 00;28;46;02
The world's paying attention.

00;28;46;02 - 00;28;49;21
A couple of years ago,
the United Nations, Unep chose

00;28;49;21 - 00;28;54;21
to pursue a treaty,
a treaty to address plastic pollution.

00;28;55;12 - 00;28;59;02
It was huge, huge
celebrations around the world

00;28;59;06 - 00;29;02;03
that, okay, we're going to do this
at the International stage.

00;29;02;03 - 00;29;05;05
We're going to stop things
like the international trade of trash.

00;29;06;04 - 00;29;08;23
Did you know that up until five years ago,

00;29;08;23 - 00;29;12;18
we were sending half of America's
recyclables to China?

00;29;12;20 - 00;29;15;14
Yes, in bales of garbage.

00;29;15;14 - 00;29;16;29
They were impure.

00;29;16;29 - 00;29;18;18
They contained medical waste.

00;29;18;18 - 00;29;23;04
Sometimes they contain munitions
and reports of live ammunition.

00;29;23;05 - 00;29;24;08
Some of these battles.

00;29;24;08 - 00;29;26;23
Who knows what just for quality control.

00;29;26;23 - 00;29;28;27
And then China said no more.

00;29;28;27 - 00;29;31;08
They called it the National Sword.

00;29;31;08 - 00;29;35;04
And that sent American recycling companies
scrambling.

00;29;35;16 - 00;29;37;29
Cities now
no longer could say they're diverting

00;29;37;29 - 00;29;41;17
half their waste in the landfill,
because it was actually going to China.

00;29;41;17 - 00;29;43;03
They couldn't say anymore.

00;29;43;03 - 00;29;45;10
And that's been a huge wake up call.

00;29;45;10 - 00;29;50;27
And that's been actually a nice incentive
for by these reduce and reuse and refill

00;29;50;27 - 00;29;54;13
stations, these innovators and come in
and say okay here's a solution.

00;29;54;13 - 00;29;55;21
It doesn't reduce the waste.

00;29;55;21 - 00;29;58;08
No need to divert waste if you don't make.

00;29;58;08 - 00;29;59;03
That's inspiring.

00;29;59;03 - 00;30;03;02
So at the United Nations now
we're seeing the international debates.

00;30;03;13 - 00;30;06;06
The stopping
the trade of trash is one big thing

00;30;06;06 - 00;30;09;06
that's huge putting production caps.

00;30;09;16 - 00;30;13;01
That's been a point of contention
big time where you've got most countries

00;30;13;01 - 00;30;15;12
just saying okay, let's make less plastic.

00;30;15;12 - 00;30;16;19
Let's put a cap on production.

00;30;16;19 - 00;30;20;12
We're now we're pushing 500 million
tons of new plastics each year.

00;30;22;02 - 00;30;25;07
That's saying a million tons.

00;30;25;18 - 00;30;28;07
If recycling works,
why would you need to make that much new?

00;30;28;07 - 00;30;31;01
Plastic doesn't work very efficiently.

00;30;31;01 - 00;30;36;01
Stop for just a moment, Marcus,
and explain to our audience a bit more

00;30;36;01 - 00;30;40;26
about this effort that the UN is doing
and where it got started.

00;30;40;26 - 00;30;44;24
And it's on the final and number
five gathering.

00;30;45;14 - 00;30;47;26
Give us an overview.
So I share the process.

00;30;47;26 - 00;30;49;10
So the United Nations decided once

00;30;49;10 - 00;30;52;10
they decided, yes,
what they will pursue a treaty.

00;30;52;10 - 00;30;57;02
The devil's in the details
and a lot of details and a lot of devil's.

00;30;58;01 - 00;31;01;20
You know,
there are over 145 countries now,

00;31;01;21 - 00;31;06;04
I think one than 75 countries
participating in the treaty process.

00;31;06;12 - 00;31;08;28
There are five negotiations and sessions.

00;31;08;28 - 00;31;12;13
Each one lasts one week, and they're
in different parts of the world.

00;31;12;20 - 00;31;15;08
And delegates come together.

00;31;15;08 - 00;31;18;01
The UK might have ten delegates.

00;31;18;01 - 00;31;19;19
Uruguay might have three delegates.

00;31;19;19 - 00;31;21;18
They all converge.

00;31;21;18 - 00;31;24;23
The last one,
ANC four, was in Ottawa, Canada.

00;31;25;07 - 00;31;27;03
You were at the last one, weren't you?

00;31;27;03 - 00;31;27;24
I was, yeah.

00;31;27;24 - 00;31;31;09
And I'll be the next one in Korea
coming up in about three and a half weeks.

00;31;32;01 - 00;31;33;14
The one in Ottawa, Canada.

00;31;33;14 - 00;31;34;17
It was my first one.

00;31;34;17 - 00;31;38;01
I messed up the previous three,
but it was insane.

00;31;38;02 - 00;31;41;24
4000 people converged
on this big conference center,

00;31;42;14 - 00;31;45;05
and they all go into one room on day one.

00;31;45;05 - 00;31;48;17
The first hour they're sitting there
and there's the UN Secretariat,

00;31;48;28 - 00;31;51;28
and he's there trying to herd cats.

00;31;52;10 - 00;31;57;09
Everyone's down and he he gives his
welcome and he lays out the agenda.

00;31;57;09 - 00;32;00;13
We're gonna trying to accomplish this
these next five, six days.

00;32;00;13 - 00;32;01;29
He allows countries to speak.

00;32;01;29 - 00;32;03;10
And some countries would say,

00;32;03;10 - 00;32;06;28
you know, very specific things
about the treaty and thanks and sit down.

00;32;07;03 - 00;32;11;17
And then I remember
Russia stood up and began to pontificate.

00;32;11;26 - 00;32;17;03
Took like 5 or 6 minutes and the UN
Secretariat interrupted and said, okay,

00;32;17;13 - 00;32;20;16
we have to focus on
very constructive comments.

00;32;20;27 - 00;32;23;14
If you're just buying
time, then please sit down.

00;32;24;14 - 00;32;26;20
It was a strategy.

00;32;26;20 - 00;32;30;10
The countries that don't want a treaty,
the oil producing countries

00;32;30;10 - 00;32;33;18
that don't want a treaty,
petrochemical driven countries,

00;32;34;02 - 00;32;38;26
they find every opportunity to derail
and delay the treaty process.

00;32;39;09 - 00;32;42;15
Yeah, the UN Secretariat,
all for the whole week.

00;32;42;21 - 00;32;44;06
He and his team,

00;32;44;06 - 00;32;47;06
they had two big separate rooms
and a big jumbotron,

00;32;47;12 - 00;32;50;05
and the actual treaty
was on the jumbotron,

00;32;50;05 - 00;32;55;23
and they would debate, they'd wordsmith
each line, one line, one word at a time.

00;32;56;03 - 00;33;00;07
One country might stand up and say,
we want to see an end rather than or.

00;33;01;09 - 00;33;03;09
And it's like watching paint dry.

00;33;03;09 - 00;33;08;08
But each of those decisions
even that and or and or could mean

00;33;08;20 - 00;33;10;19
hundreds of millions of dollars

00;33;10;19 - 00;33;14;12
in terms of revenue from reducing
the global trade of plastics.

00;33;14;22 - 00;33;19;03
So it was a little bit high school ish
in that you had cliques that were forming.

00;33;19;16 - 00;33;21;06
So all these countries are forming.

00;33;21;06 - 00;33;24;06
You had probably six different coalitions.

00;33;24;14 - 00;33;27;07
One was called the High Ambition
Coalition.

00;33;27;07 - 00;33;30;22
Then there's the like Minded Countries
Coalition.

00;33;31;05 - 00;33;34;07
And then you had the EU,
Pacific island states,

00;33;34;19 - 00;33;37;19
Central and South America,
different coalitions forming.

00;33;38;00 - 00;33;41;00
But the two, they're on opposite
ends of the spectrum.

00;33;41;00 - 00;33;44;12
There's a high ambition coalition
which wants a strong treaty.

00;33;45;08 - 00;33;48;26
They are aligned
with what the scientists think they want.

00;33;48;26 - 00;33;50;22
Production caps.

00;33;50;22 - 00;33;53;12
They want to stop the trade of trash.

00;33;53;12 - 00;33;55;12
They want design standards.

00;33;55;12 - 00;33;58;06
So if you don't have real recyclability
built

00;33;58;06 - 00;34;00;27
in, then you can't make your product,
your packaging.

00;34;00;27 - 00;34;02;04
You got to have a plan.

00;34;02;04 - 00;34;04;13
They also want it to be legally binding.

00;34;04;13 - 00;34;05;20
They don't want to voluntary treaty.

00;34;05;20 - 00;34;07;13
It won't be legally binding.

00;34;07;13 - 00;34;07;19
Yeah.

00;34;07;19 - 00;34;10;19
Up to the spectrum
are the like minded countries.

00;34;10;19 - 00;34;13;13
And they're a small minority,
but they're powerful.

00;34;13;13 - 00;34;16;13
It includes Russia and China

00;34;16;23 - 00;34;21;12
and Saudi Arabia, Bahrain,
all the oil producing countries.

00;34;22;02 - 00;34;25;02
And they aim just to delay and derail.

00;34;25;16 - 00;34;27;29
So I'm there at this treaty

00;34;27;29 - 00;34;30;29
as part of a group called the Scientists
Coalition.

00;34;31;22 - 00;34;34;23
We're 450 members, and we are there

00;34;35;00 - 00;34;38;26
to really look and listen
when we hear lies,

00;34;39;06 - 00;34;42;10
when we hear misinformation,
be intentionally put out there.

00;34;42;21 - 00;34;47;09
Or if we hear an opportunity
to share information, we find a country

00;34;47;09 - 00;34;50;18
might not know
about how to recycle marine debris

00;34;51;03 - 00;34;55;07
or how PVC might cause harm to human
tissues, whatever.

00;34;55;13 - 00;34;58;17
So we're there to provide the science,
kind of like honest brokers.

00;34;58;25 - 00;35;01;26
We sort of hover and interject science
when it's needed.

00;35;01;26 - 00;35;04;16
We're very much aligned
with the High Ambition Coalition.

00;35;04;16 - 00;35;06;16
If you look at
what our goals are as scientists,

00;35;06;16 - 00;35;09;28
what we think is going to work in the
world, it's almost step by step aligned.

00;35;09;28 - 00;35;12;00
We want a strong treaty.

00;35;12;00 - 00;35;15;00
The like minded countries,
they want a voluntary.

00;35;15;01 - 00;35;18;01
And we know when programs are voluntary.

00;35;18;10 - 00;35;19;07
They don't work.

00;35;20;09 - 00;35;21;25
They don't work at all.

00;35;21;25 - 00;35;22;29
So that's the setting.

00;35;22;29 - 00;35;28;12
So now the fifth treaty, 
negotiation happens on November 25th.

00;35;28;12 - 00;35;31;07
It's coming up soon in Korea,
be it for a week and a half.

00;35;31;07 - 00;35;34;07
And I'll be with the Scientists Coalition,
you know, helping to inform

00;35;34;25 - 00;35;38;01
delegates of other, other nations
where they need information

00;35;38;04 - 00;35;41;21
or where they're spouting misinformation
and let other countries know that this is

00;35;41;28 - 00;35;42;29
this is B.S.

00;35;42;29 - 00;35;46;19
and also working with,
some other coalition partners of ours

00;35;46;22 - 00;35;50;20
looking at biomaterials
while we talk about reuse and refill

00;35;50;20 - 00;35;54;16
stations as a very revolutionary way
to move products.

00;35;54;16 - 00;35;55;20
And so these are doing it.

00;35;55;20 - 00;35;59;08
There are a lot of areas where plastics
still have a place in society.

00;36;00;12 - 00;36;02;28
For example,
how do you wrap meats and cheeses?

00;36;02;28 - 00;36;04;18
We need a wrapping for those.

00;36;04;18 - 00;36;07;09
Some plastics
have a good place in architecture

00;36;07;09 - 00;36;10;26
and building houses a lot of plastics
there, a lot of plastics and plumbing,

00;36;11;15 - 00;36;14;13
a lot of plastics
and technology and industry.

00;36;14;13 - 00;36;18;25
So how those get managed and carpeting,
how all the stuff gets to manage

00;36;18;25 - 00;36;22;15
and the chemistry involved
all needs to be revisited.

00;36;25;19 - 00;36;26;22
We'll be right back,

00;36;26;22 - 00;36;29;22
right after this special message.

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Welcome back to Resilient Earth Radio.

00;37;54;16 - 00;37;55;24
Are there materials

00;37;55;24 - 00;37;59;04
that act like plastics
that don't come from fossil fuels,

00;37;59;29 - 00;38;03;01
that don't cause harm
against the environment?

00;38;03;14 - 00;38;06;02
Quite a tall order.

00;38;06;02 - 00;38;08;02
Like to expect a material.

00;38;08;02 - 00;38;10;29
It's going to behave perfectly
while it's on the store shelf.

00;38;10;29 - 00;38;13;26
The moment touches the ocean,
it begins to fall apart.

00;38;13;26 - 00;38;15;14
That's a hard thing to find,

00;38;15;14 - 00;38;18;27
but there's been so much research
and development over the last,

00;38;19;05 - 00;38;22;15
I'd say a few decades,
especially the last 5 or 10 years.

00;38;23;10 - 00;38;24;29
There are a lot of companies on the market

00;38;24;29 - 00;38;27;21
now that are making alternative materials.

00;38;27;21 - 00;38;31;21
I was a science advisor for a contest
put together by the Lonely Whale

00;38;31;21 - 00;38;35;12
Foundation, trying to find
the best replacement for Saran Wrap.

00;38;35;12 - 00;38;37;18
Yes, those thin cling wraps.

00;38;37;18 - 00;38;38;23
They work great.

00;38;38;23 - 00;38;41;17
They're great for so many, reasons.

00;38;41;17 - 00;38;44;16
Or from the cling wrap around pallets,
pallet wrap

00;38;45;01 - 00;38;49;14
to packaging clothing like this
prize is actually funded by Tom Ford.

00;38;49;22 - 00;38;53;21
And he wanted to find another poly bag
to package clothing.

00;38;54;01 - 00;38;57;29
And of course, those kinds of thin films
for repackaging food as a moisture

00;38;57;29 - 00;38;59;18
barrier and air barrier.

00;38;59;18 - 00;39;03;10
There are a couple companies
that stand out once called not PLA.

00;39;03;28 - 00;39;06;14
The other is called sway.

00;39;06;14 - 00;39;08;26
Both these companies use seaweed.

00;39;08;26 - 00;39;12;16
You can process seaweed
and make a clear clinging wrap.

00;39;13;13 - 00;39;16;10
And it's a new novel material.

00;39;16;10 - 00;39;18;17
It's going to revolutionize packaging.

00;39;18;17 - 00;39;21;28
You know, part of the prize
was looking at everything

00;39;21;28 - 00;39;26;08
from the end of life, of the material,
but also where

00;39;26;08 - 00;39;29;08
it comes from, the sourcing of it
and the sustainability of that.

00;39;29;13 - 00;39;31;26
It's decentralized production.

00;39;31;26 - 00;39;35;03
You could buy your seaweed from farmers
around the world.

00;39;35;13 - 00;39;38;13
Almost every coastal country
is doing some seaweed harvesting.

00;39;39;00 - 00;39;41;27
If you create seaweed farms,
there are lots of them out there.

00;39;41;27 - 00;39;44;07
They sequester a lot of carbon.

00;39;44;07 - 00;39;46;16
They create a lot of life.

00;39;46;16 - 00;39;49;16
A lot of life lives
in those seaweed farms.

00;39;49;17 - 00;39;51;21
They can produce all kinds
of the materials as well.

00;39;51;21 - 00;39;56;14
Everything from textiles
to medicinal value and a lot of seaweed.

00;39;56;28 - 00;39;59;14
A lot of food can come from seaweed,

00;39;59;14 - 00;40;03;14
nature, market material and has yet
to be really explored as fullest extent.

00;40;04;02 - 00;40;05;14
But it's gotta be done sustainably.

00;40;05;14 - 00;40;09;16
You know, there's there's a lot
of chemistry goes into making plastic

00;40;09;16 - 00;40;13;06
do what you wanted to do to make
a piece of thin film, you know, cling

00;40;13;27 - 00;40;16;27
or make it slide
off of another sheet of plastic.

00;40;17;03 - 00;40;18;26
You add chemicals to it.

00;40;18;26 - 00;40;22;09
For example, if you take, PVC, PVC

00;40;22;09 - 00;40;25;11
pipes in your kitchen, add
a chemical called phthalates to it.

00;40;25;23 - 00;40;28;07
You can turn that into a rubber ducky.

00;40;28;07 - 00;40;30;15
That's why it's so soft and pliable.

00;40;30;15 - 00;40;34;18
But I've had colleagues when I first
research papers was looking at phthalates.

00;40;35;04 - 00;40;37;16
It mimics human estrogen.

00;40;37;16 - 00;40;39;21
It's an endocrine disruptor.

00;40;39;21 - 00;40;41;06
So we found that a rubber ducky,

00;40;41;06 - 00;40;44;15
a kid chewing on it,
we actually put out a health warning.

00;40;45;00 - 00;40;45;25
Don't do that.

00;40;45;25 - 00;40;48;12
It's more of a phthalate popsicle.

00;40;48;12 - 00;40;49;01
Anything else?

00;40;49;01 - 00;40;52;09
It leaches so much of these phthalates,
these endocrine disrupting chemicals.

00;40;52;28 - 00;40;56;21
The point is, anything you make
in plastic, you got to pay attention.

00;40;56;22 - 00;40;59;02
The chemistry added to it.

00;40;59;02 - 00;41;03;14
Are you adding PFAs to a degradation
or a hydrophobic material?

00;41;03;28 - 00;41;05;11
It makes things waterproof.

00;41;05;11 - 00;41;07;02
Are you adding flame retardants?

00;41;08;04 - 00;41;10;17
Are you adding UV stabilizers?

00;41;10;17 - 00;41;12;09
Are there any of those forever chemicals?

00;41;12;09 - 00;41;15;04
What are the human health
or ecological impacts?

00;41;15;04 - 00;41;18;04
So we talk about
going to particular materials.

00;41;18;05 - 00;41;20;23
We also talk about the other chemicals,

00;41;20;23 - 00;41;23;23
the plasticizers that give it your colors,
the properties you want.

00;41;24;05 - 00;41;28;27
So there's a lot of smart regulation
to make sure the products are not going to

00;41;28;27 - 00;41;32;19
cause harm, but have high utility
when they're used as a product.

00;41;33;01 - 00;41;36;09
And I think some of these seaweed based
biomaterials can work.

00;41;36;27 - 00;41;41;07
There's another called,
which I really like a lot.

00;41;42;06 - 00;41;45;06
And b
there are a few companies, one called

00;41;45;06 - 00;41;48;06
New Light Technologies
in Huntington Beach, California.

00;41;48;11 - 00;41;51;11
They make they make a B straw.

00;41;52;09 - 00;41;54;12
And I took their straw.

00;41;54;12 - 00;41;57;07
And about 21 other products.

00;41;57;07 - 00;41;59;01
I did a year and a half study.

00;41;59;01 - 00;42;03;11
I took all these new materials and said,
okay, I want to cut through all the

00;42;03;23 - 00;42;08;18
all the advertising and say, okay, do
they actually degrade in the environment?

00;42;09;12 - 00;42;11;21
I took those b straws.

00;42;11;21 - 00;42;14;04
I took the suede cling wrap

00;42;14;04 - 00;42;18;27
I took for products five straws,
all these things, 22 of them,

00;42;19;05 - 00;42;22;01
and I put them in six environments across
nine states.

00;42;22;01 - 00;42;26;23
I chose an aquatic and a terrestrial,
a land and sea environment

00;42;26;23 - 00;42;31;09
in Maine and Florida
and California, six different places.

00;42;31;18 - 00;42;34;11
And I've put these products in mesh bags
and put them

00;42;34;11 - 00;42;37;12
underground, underwater
for a year and a half.

00;42;37;27 - 00;42;39;19
That was a test for me to say, okay,

00;42;39;19 - 00;42;42;19
do they actually do what they say
they're going to do?

00;42;42;20 - 00;42;45;20
And on land, things degrade very slowly.

00;42;45;27 - 00;42;49;13
Some things didn't degrade at all,
some very slowly in the oceans.

00;42;49;13 - 00;42;52;13
I was impressed that straw

00;42;52;19 - 00;42;55;19
it was gone a few months gone completely.

00;42;55;26 - 00;42;58;29
And the items gone within a year.

00;42;59;25 - 00;43;03;16
Is it completely different
than those little packets

00;43;03;16 - 00;43;06;04
that we get for dishwashers?

00;43;06;04 - 00;43;10;18
It dissolves, but it breaks down
into little tiny plastic particles.

00;43;11;00 - 00;43;12;07
So it's not like that.

00;43;13;14 - 00;43;14;09
The difference.

00;43;14;09 - 00;43;17;08
That's called PVA polyvinyl alcohol.

00;43;17;08 - 00;43;17;22
Those are things.

00;43;17;22 - 00;43;20;03
A little detergent pods. Yes.

00;43;20;03 - 00;43;23;03
They degrade in the microparticles
from those.

00;43;23;03 - 00;43;24;27
If they're still PVA.

00;43;24;27 - 00;43;26;29
They're more environmentally benign.

00;43;26;29 - 00;43;29;12
So there's a lot of concerns about PVA.

00;43;29;12 - 00;43;32;03
If they're adding microplastics
to it, adding some chemicals

00;43;32;03 - 00;43;35;11
to it to increase the solubility
or increase the strength.

00;43;35;29 - 00;43;37;10
Those can be problematic.

00;43;37;10 - 00;43;41;07
But PVA, by itself, the environment
is largely a benign material.

00;43;42;07 - 00;43;42;26
Very.

00;43;42;26 - 00;43;46;14
Depends on the pod and the kind of
material they're used with using pure PVA.

00;43;46;15 - 00;43;48;02
I'm okay with it.

00;43;48;02 - 00;43;51;18
You have so much great information
to share with us.

00;43;51;29 - 00;43;56;20
And if my co-host have any questions, too,
I'd like for you to ask those right now.

00;43;57;09 - 00;44;00;11
I'm wondering about the refill stations.

00;44;00;18 - 00;44;03;22
Is there any thought of having them
actually

00;44;04;01 - 00;44;10;00
within an established grocery store,
so that it's not a separate location,

00;44;10;00 - 00;44;14;01
that people would have
to make an extra trip to or stop at?

00;44;14;12 - 00;44;17;05
Can they do it
just while grocery shopping?

00;44;17;05 - 00;44;19;28
Is that feasible? Yes, yes they are.

00;44;19;28 - 00;44;21;06
And I'd mentioned sprouts.

00;44;21;06 - 00;44;23;12
You know, sprouts has beans.
You get a little scoop

00;44;23;12 - 00;44;26;12
and you can get your grains, your candies
and other things.

00;44;26;19 - 00;44;27;22
So some stores do it.

00;44;27;22 - 00;44;31;12
It's not as widely adopted yet
from the big grocery chains.

00;44;31;17 - 00;44;33;04
And it should be.

00;44;33;04 - 00;44;37;05
But I haven't seen a major grocer
that's giving refill for,

00;44;37;05 - 00;44;40;29
let's say, shampoos
and other commodities like that.

00;44;41;10 - 00;44;43;03
And this is where a lot like
the innovation is.

00;44;43;03 - 00;44;46;18
This one young man went on Shark Tank
with his new little soap,

00;44;46;18 - 00;44;49;18
little sphere
like a marble as big as a walnut.

00;44;49;25 - 00;44;51;01
And it's called no Bay.

00;44;51;01 - 00;44;52;16
Knobby as his company.

00;44;52;16 - 00;44;53;20
I think.

00;44;53;20 - 00;44;56;10
But he he was a kid.

00;44;56;10 - 00;44;57;09
Looked around his house.

00;44;57;09 - 00;45;01;07
He said, here's some dishwashing soap
for my dishes.

00;45;01;07 - 00;45;02;22
There's soap for my clothing.

00;45;02;22 - 00;45;06;20
Soap for my dog, for my cat
to wash my floors, to wash the car.

00;45;07;05 - 00;45;08;06
And it's all soap.

00;45;08;06 - 00;45;09;26
My shampoo is the same stuff.

00;45;09;26 - 00;45;11;15
It's just soap.

00;45;11;15 - 00;45;16;08
So he and his parents have hired
a chemist, made a soap, marble shark tank.

00;45;16;08 - 00;45;18;04
Offered,
like a hundred grand or something.

00;45;18;04 - 00;45;20;27
And half his company. He said no.

00;45;20;27 - 00;45;24;09
In the last time I followed him,
had his first round of investment,

00;45;24;13 - 00;45;27;14
over 3 million he raised for his company.

00;45;27;20 - 00;45;30;07
And he's fresh out of high school, and I.

00;45;30;07 - 00;45;35;01
So I love listening to young people,
young innovators, young organizers.

00;45;35;10 - 00;45;38;28
There are so many NGOs out there,
local and global,

00;45;39;11 - 00;45;43;00
that are full of young people
that are so inspired

00;45;43;12 - 00;45;48;00
and their ideas are really in line,
aligned with the way the world is going.

00;45;48;00 - 00;45;51;00
You know, I'm now I'm 57 years old.

00;45;51;00 - 00;45;53;00
I have a hard time
thinking the way young people think.

00;45;53;00 - 00;45;56;15
And they they're more in tune
with all that's out there.

00;45;56;19 - 00;45;59;19
They bring in the innovation,
they bring in the communication skills.

00;46;00;06 - 00;46;02;25
They bring in the entrepreneurship.

00;46;02;25 - 00;46;05;16
So I love supporting young people,
and I find them out there

00;46;05;16 - 00;46;08;23
and young scientists, you know,
I've now been at this for 20 years.

00;46;09;03 - 00;46;12;18
There's a whole army of young scientists
just getting their PhDs

00;46;12;28 - 00;46;15;01
that are asking really good questions.

00;46;15;01 - 00;46;18;13
My colleague Lisa Ertel,
she's an expert on microfibers.

00;46;18;13 - 00;46;20;06
We didn't get to textiles very much.

00;46;20;06 - 00;46;22;24
Lisa Ertl
could really go deep on textiles.

00;46;22;24 - 00;46;25;19
She studied the fiber catching things.

00;46;25;19 - 00;46;30;00
And in washing machines, she's studying
air capture microfibers.

00;46;30;04 - 00;46;31;28
She's studying
different kinds of textiles.

00;46;31;28 - 00;46;34;04
She works with Cotton Inc all the time.

00;46;34;04 - 00;46;38;27
She's an example of a new scientist
that's really pushing that frontier.

00;46;39;21 - 00;46;44;04
So, you know, as I look back on 20 years,
we're still going strong.

00;46;44;04 - 00;46;48;27
The UN, it's still a debate happening,
but I'm more optimistic

00;46;48;27 - 00;46;53;21
because I see a lot of young people
in entrepreneurship and leadership

00;46;53;28 - 00;46;57;03
in science that are taking the reins
and moving things forward.

00;46;57;09 - 00;47;01;08
Well, obviously, Marcus Ericsson,
we're going to have to have you back

00;47;01;08 - 00;47;06;26
for an update on all of these things
and expand our topic even more.

00;47;06;26 - 00;47;09;18
And I just want to check in real quick
with Scott.

00;47;09;18 - 00;47;12;00
Scott,
do you have a question you'd like to ask?

00;47;12;00 - 00;47;12;25
Thank you very much.

00;47;12;25 - 00;47;15;01
It's been a incredibly instructional.

00;47;15;01 - 00;47;18;06
I decided early on when you started
that I wasn't going to interrupt you.

00;47;18;20 - 00;47;20;13
There was just too much information
coming.

00;47;20;13 - 00;47;23;13
I mean, seriously,
it becomes very discouraging.

00;47;23;14 - 00;47;26;14
When I was listening to you
talk, you were talking about

00;47;26;14 - 00;47;30;27
when it gets down to the bottom line
with corporations, even their own families

00;47;30;27 - 00;47;35;22
and themselves, their health still gets
down to the bottom line with their profit.

00;47;36;04 - 00;47;39;27
Then stockholders are sitting here
thinking of all this, that why people

00;47;39;27 - 00;47;43;07
would not jump into a cleaner environment

00;47;43;19 - 00;47;46;19
and then it gets into their profit line.

00;47;47;01 - 00;47;49;18
You've heard stories like this,
but in New Hampshire,

00;47;49;18 - 00;47;52;28
there was a large group of school kids
who decided that they wanted

00;47;53;08 - 00;47;56;08
mylar balloons
and other types of balloons band,

00;47;56;14 - 00;47;59;11
and they took it
all the way to the state legislature,

00;47;59;11 - 00;48;02;10
and they did a field trip there,
and they were going to present their case

00;48;02;10 - 00;48;06;11
to have certain inflatable
balloons was banned in New Hampshire.

00;48;06;27 - 00;48;09;27
And the day they arrived,
so did the balloon lobby.

00;48;10;16 - 00;48;13;16
Lawyers
and three piece suits came to counter

00;48;13;21 - 00;48;16;23
school kids, and they carried the day.

00;48;17;02 - 00;48;18;23
The balloon lobby

00;48;18;23 - 00;48;20;14
showing the amount of money
in New Hampshire

00;48;20;14 - 00;48;22;16
makes for their sales taxes and so forth.

00;48;22;16 - 00;48;27;22
And the kids went away with quite an
instruction and participatory democracy.

00;48;28;11 - 00;48;32;15
So, yeah, I would love to have you back
your schedule permits.

00;48;32;27 - 00;48;36;08
I had a few questions about the sailing
you did back and forth about

00;48;36;15 - 00;48;37;15
a practical standpoint.

00;48;37;15 - 00;48;39;17
How you did that is fascinating.

00;48;39;17 - 00;48;42;03
And I was also wondering
about the sampling you did of the plastic.

00;48;42;03 - 00;48;43;27
And hopefully we have you back on.

00;48;43;27 - 00;48;47;11
We can talk about that
a little more and come.

00;48;47;11 - 00;48;48;22
Back and tell you more.

00;48;48;22 - 00;48;50;05
Yeah. Hope you do.

00;48;50;05 - 00;48;52;21
Thank you very much for coming.
It's been wonderful.

00;48;52;21 - 00;48;54;10
My pleasure. Great conversation.

00;48;54;10 - 00;48;55;07
Thank you.

00;48;55;07 - 00;48;57;04
Yes. And that was Marcus Ericksen.

00;48;57;04 - 00;48;59;09
He's with 5 gyres Institute.

00;48;59;09 - 00;49;02;09
He is co-founder
and he's a marine scientist

00;49;02;09 - 00;49;05;00
studying plastic pollution in the world's
oceans.

00;49;05;00 - 00;49;09;01
You've been listening to KGUA
in Gualala, CA 88.3 FM.

00;49;09;09 - 00;49;11;15
This is Resilient Earth Radio.

00;49;11;15 - 00;49;12;13
I'm Leigh Anne Lindsey,

00;49;12;13 - 00;49;15;29
along with Scott and Tree (Theresa) Mercer
of the Mendonoma Whale and Seal Study.

00;49;16;10 - 00;49;16;29
Thank you

00;49;16;29 - 00;49;20;24
again, Marcus, for joining us today
and we look forward to having you back.

00;49;20;28 - 00;49;23;08
My pleasure.
Thank you. Till next time. All right.

00;49;23;08 - 00;49;25;02
Next time. Thanks for listening.

00;49;27;23 - 00;49;28;25
Live local.

00;49;28;25 - 00;49;29;16
Coastal.

00;49;29;16 - 00;49;32;16
This is KGUA 88.3 FM.

00;49;40;12 - 00;49;41;11
Thanks for listening

00;49;41;11 - 00;49;45;06
to Resilient Earth Radio,
where we talk about critical issues

00;49;45;06 - 00;49;49;02
facing our planet and the positive actions
people are taking.

00;49;49;17 - 00;49;52;19
Produced in association
with Planet Centric Media,

00;49;53;08 - 00;49;56;19
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00;49;56;23 - 00;50;00;19
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on the Northern California coast.

00;50;01;25 - 00;50;04;11
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00;50;04;11 - 00;50;07;11
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00;50;09;16 - 00;50;10;27
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00;50;10;27 - 00;50;15;00
is Castle by the sea, from international composer

00;50;15;00 - 00;50;18;03
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00;50;18;03 - 00;50;21;03
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00;50;28;20 - 00;50;29;29
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00;50;29;29 - 00;50;32;29
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00;50;33;08 - 00;50;35;28
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00;50;45;15 - 00;50;48;17
Hi, I'm Esai Morales,
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