Dr. Josh McInnis Determining the Ecology and Community Structure of West Coast Transient Killer Whales along the Pacific Coast Canada-Baja

Watch the video of his presentation here on YouTube: https://youtu.be/nZ4NgdnmFf8

This episode is about Dr. Josh McInnis who presented at our 6th Annual Ocean Life Symposium October 2024. Topic: Determining the Ecology and Community Structure of West Coast Transient Killer Whales in the Northeastern Pacific. Josh is from the windy seaside city of Victoria BC, Canada. His research focuses on the ecology and behaviour of marine mammals in British Columbia and Monterey Bay, California, with studies focusing on the foraging behaviour, diet, and ecology of transient (Bigg’s) killer whales and Risso’s Dolphins. They gather information with the help of NOAA, Oregon State University, Pacific Wildlife Foundation, ACCESS (which we interviewed before), and a bunch of whale watchers from Canada to Baja. 

See his publication: Foraging behaviour and ecology of transient killer whales within a deep submarine canyon system 

Josh D. McInnes ,Kevin M. Lester,Lawrence M. Dill,Chelsea R. Mathieson,Peggy J. West-Stap,Stephanie L. Marcos,Andrew W. Trites

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0299291

And this article published: March 20, 2024

https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0299291

Transient killer whales have been documented hunting marine mammals across a variety of habitats. However, relatively little has been reported about their predatory behaviours near deep submarine canyons and oceanic environments. We used a long-term database of sightings and encounters with these predators in and around the Monterey Submarine Canyon, California to describe foraging behaviour, diet, seasonal occurrence, and habitat use patterns. 

Planet Centric Media (non-profit)
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Mendonoma Whale & Seal Study
Founded by Scott & Tree Mercer to document the occurrence, diversity, & behavior of marine mammals.

Sea Storm Studios, Inc.
An audio/visual production company in the Sea Ranch, CA (US)

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Transcript

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This week
on Resilient Earth Radio and Podcast,

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you'll be hearing a speaker
from the sixth annual Ocean Life Symposium

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that was broadcast on public
radio and shown live on YouTube

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back in October of 2024.
Sea Storm Studios & Planet Centric Media

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teamed up again with Mendonoma
Whale and Seal Study

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to produce this annual event
about the health and future

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of our oceans, andthe marine life 
that lives within them.

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coming up next right here on Resilient

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Earth Radio and podcast.

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Josh is a marine

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biologist specializing
in the ecology of marine mammals,

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and he has spent over a decade studying
the ecology of killer whales.

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Josh,
his work started in British Columbia,

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where he focused on the transient
or Bigg’s killer whale hunting eco type.

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He also collaborated with researchers
studying killer whales in Australia,

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South Africa,
Washington, Alaska and California,

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and Josh obtained a B.S.

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in Marine Biology at the University
of Victoria, British Columbia,

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and taught ocean sciences at the Bamfield
Marine Sciences Life Studies in Monterey

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Bay, California, and where he focuses on
studying toothed cetaceans,

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he is at the Marine Mammal Research Unit

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at British Columbia,
the University of British Columbia.

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He's the ecology, behavior, and habitat

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use of transient killer
whales in the California Current.

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Boy Josh, that's quite the title.

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Welcome to the Ocean Life Symposium.

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Thank you for joining us today.

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Josh, why don't we just find out

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what you're going to be presenting today
while they get settled?

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Yeah.

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So today I'm going to present

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some actually exciting new work,
that we've been focusing on.

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So a big, large scale study of transient
killer whales, basically

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between southern British
Columbia and Southern California.

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So it it shows the distribution
of what we believe to be

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at least two populations,
probably three populations we conducted.

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It's been a bit of a five year study
through the UBC’s Marine Mammal Research

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Unit.

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We've kind of put together this pretty
amazing database of transients throughout

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The route, that area.

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All right.

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Well,
we are going to give you the platform.

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And I don't know if Scott's audio on
I think it is. Yes.

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I just want to make Scott you're with us.

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Are you there. Yeah. Yeah.

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So I want to be sure to congratulate,
Josh on, the PhD.

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Absolutely. 
That’s fantastic.

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So very.

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Much.

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We need to be calling you “Dr.” Josh.

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Dr. Josh (Tree says as she laughs)

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Josh is just terrific.

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You know?

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Congratulations, Josh.

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All right,
well, we're going to let our audience know

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that we're going to be taking a backseat
here.

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Now, we're going to allow Josh to

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now do his presentation,
and we'll be back after he is finished.

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Okay.

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So I'll start off with, saying
thank you very much Mendocino

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for letting me come and do a presentation
today on some pretty exciting research.

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Transient killer whales.

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So this presentation today is called
the ecology,

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behavior,

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and habitat use of Transient killer
whales in the California current System.

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My research.

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I'm a research scientist
with the University of British Columbia,

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as well
as, the Marine Mammal Research Unit,

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which is within the Institute
for Oceans and Fisheries.

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(getting presentation ready)

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Oh, there we go.

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Okay.

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All right, so first off,
I just want to go over,

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what the population status of Transient Killer Whales 
looks like, throughout the North Pacific.

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So, Transient killer whales are mammal
hunting, specialists.

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They're one of three eco types.

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So you have the resident Killer Whales
which eat

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fish, you know, transient killer whales,
which eat marine mammals.

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And you have, a third eco type,
which we call the offshores, which,

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appear to be, primarily
fish specialists as well,

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but they kind of feed higher
up on the trophic level.

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But transient killer whales
are found throughout the North Pacific,

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from as far south as southern California

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to as far north as, 
the Bering Sea, up to the Chukchi Sea

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but also as far west along
the Aleutian Islands, over to the Russian

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far east coast, to the Kamchatka peninsula,
and even into the waters of Japan.

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But within this range, this distribution,

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we have a number of populations, one, 
in stocks.

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So the difference being is the population
is the genetically distinct group

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of the whales
that socialize with each other,

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intermingle
and share a particular habitat.

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And where we have stocks, in the US
where you have animals

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that are managed as a particular group
based on a number of features.

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So for instance, this one stock
we have here is called the Gulf of Alaska.

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We also know them as the Gulf of Alaska,
Aleutian Islands, Bering Sea stock.

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They're found throughout, the Aleutian
Islands up into the Bering Sea.

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Around
Kodiak Islands in Prince William Sound.

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And then even this far
south as northern British Columbia.

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And their

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population from, recent assessment
from NOAA,

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based on photo identification
is roughly around 500 animals.

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We also have another population,
called the AT1s which is this

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little blue dot up here in Prince William
Sound in the Kenai Fjords.

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Their population currently is, depleted.

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And and there's only around seven animals
that have been identified as of 2020.

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And that population,
when first identified, was in 1984

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during field studies
by Steven Leatherwood, where they were

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looking at killer whale populations throughout
southeast Alaska and southern Alaska.

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And there was 22 animals
initially identified.

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But then during the Exxon Valdez oil spill
in the late 1980s, that decreased to,

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to 12 animals
and now subsequently seven animals.

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But the best

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known stock or population
is the West coast transients.

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And this purple area here is
the distribution of west coast transients.

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So you can see throughout Southeast Alaska

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all the way down to northern British
Columbia.

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And Haida Gwaii BC, all the way down
to Vancouver Island and Puget Sound.

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Washington. And then also all the way down
to Southern California.

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Is this stock or population.

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But we also have, what we believe
to be an outer coast group.

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And this group has been recognized
for a couple of decades now,

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but it's based on rare,
rare sightings of transients

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in offshore waters or further from shore,
sometimes up into the Salish Sea.

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They kind of make appearances
and then disappear.

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And a
lot of the research that's been done over

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the years has kind of been back and forth
about where this group really belongs,

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or if the West Coast population
includes all whales from British Columbia

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to Southern California, or is it just
whales from Washington, British Columbia?

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And it really

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where did the animals off of Washington,
Oregon and California fit in?

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So my research today is kind of going
to talk about what these two populations,

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Where the West Coast transient killer
whale population really fits in.

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I spent the last five years
kind of really diving into the data,

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trying to discern if there one population
or separate and, yeah.

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So let's let's get going.

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So first, the most research,

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as you can see here, this red circle is,
has been conducted in Haida Gwaii, B.C.,

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British Columbia in Washington
state, very much in coastal waters.

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And that's pretty much the majority of,

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of the studies that have been produced
since the 1970s. And,

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but there's been a bit of an interesting
gray area, which is right here.

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You can see there's been few studies
in this large distribution

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from southern British
Columbia down to Southern California.

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There's a big gap in our understanding
of the habitat use

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and where where these where
these animals go and and where they do.

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They fit in.

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So first off, West Coast Transient

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killer whales, are actually a,
part of the transient population.

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As I mentioned, they're a subspecies
or Ocinus orca rectipinnus.

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They're apex predators that feed on in
coastal and off shore ecosystems.

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So they're they're found both
in coastal waters and in deeper off

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waters along the continental shelf
and further from shore.

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They're very important to ecosystems.

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They provide top down control
and food webs.

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Their prey includes
pinnipeds, cetaceans, seabirds and squid.

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So pinnipeds being seals and sea lions

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Cetaceans being dolphins, porpoises
and large whales,

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but they're also known to take seabirds
and and squid as well. Oh,

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just go back one.

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The West Coast population though
initially.

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So the reason for this research,
was designated special concern

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in 1999 by the Canadian government
Department of Fisheries

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and Oceans and Pacific Oceans, 
the Committee on the Endangered Species

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and Wildlife in Nature.

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And then in 2001,
they were reassessed as threatened.

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But they weren't
legally listed until 2003,

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under SARA
which the Species at Risk Act and Canada

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and then the US under the Marine
Mammal Protection Act, they were

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they were listed as non threatened
and not depleted.

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So that's kind of the government policy.

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But because in Canada
that they've been recognized.

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(this species?) is threatened (unknown words)

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The Department of Fisheries
and Oceans Canada manages,

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marine mammals, they said,
also create a recovery plan in 2007.

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And in that recovery plan,
they highlighted that there was a lack of

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information on Transient killer
whales, particularly

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in the south of Washington,
and that any individuals in California

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or Oregon, should not be part
of this West Coast population,

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until more information was found.

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And similarly, though NOAA came along
its National Marine Fisheries Service

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and also said they recognize it continue
to use one stock or one population

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throughout southern BC, or throughout
southeast Alaska to southern California.

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But that more information
was needed to really kind of address this.

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So my

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overview for my research
really was to better understand

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the population, social structure
and ecological roles

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of the transient whales in the California
current system.

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That's
we use social and geospatial analyses

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of photo identified whales from southern
BC to southern California.

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We looked at habitat use patterns
from foreign management conservation policies.

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This was a major part of this research.

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And also looking
at the behavioral ecology and habitat use

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in whales that were primarily

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in open ocean environments
where there was very little effort.

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So the California current system really
what is this?

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Well, it's a transboundary current
that goes between Canada

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and the US or southern British
Columbia is kind of the northern region.

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And then the flows south
as part of this North Pacific

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Gyre, which is a system of currents.

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So it connects in the northern region
via, the Alaska currents.

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So you can kind of see here this is, 
the range of the California currents.

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So further outside
this map would actually be

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kind of other currents, part of this North
Pacific Gyre that go up to the central,

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go to the Central Pacific.

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And this is kind of this
big gyre movement of water.

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But for the purposes of this research,
we kind of looked at this area here

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off southern B.C.

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off southern Vancouver Island
as this current flow.

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So what the California Current really
is actually a system of currents.

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It's a mixture.

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So you have a main California current,
which you can see here that flows south.

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It's a cold water current
that transports nutrient rich water.

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It's primarily a surface current, 
a system of surface currents

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that extend to approximately 500 meter

00:14:00:14 - 00:14:03:14
depth, but up to 1000km offshore.

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You also have a cool coastal jet, though,
the kind of flows south as well,

00:14:07:09 - 00:14:10:23
but along the continental
shelf break and north.

00:14:10:27 - 00:14:11:09
Sorry.

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It flows north along the continental
shelf break and along the slope.

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But during the winter time,
we also have a Davidson current,

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which is a warm water current
that flows north.

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That's warm.

00:14:24:03 - 00:14:26:02
This is primarily in the fall and winter.

00:14:26:02 - 00:14:30:07
And this system occurrence here
really provides a lot of the nutrients.

00:14:30:10 - 00:14:35:23
And it's part of this upwelling, events
that happen off the coast of California

00:14:35:23 - 00:14:39:10
up to southern BC, that that makes this
region such a rich and productive area.

00:14:41:28 - 00:14:44:24
So how the study was conducted,
based on what we looked

00:14:44:24 - 00:14:48:19
at, the data collection and analysis,
one field research was conducted.

00:14:48:19 - 00:14:52:01
So we looked at data collected
from NOAA research ship surveys.

00:14:52:24 - 00:14:55:14
We looked at small vessel surveys,

00:14:55:14 - 00:14:57:29
looked at opportunistic sightings.

00:14:57:29 - 00:15:01:14
And then our analysis involves
looking at the population structure

00:15:01:14 - 00:15:06:01
through photo identification of individual
whales, social network analysis.

00:15:06:18 - 00:15:10:23
So I'll go into these and then we also
looked at a geospatial analysis.

00:15:10:23 - 00:15:15:25
And we chose three primary parameters
to really kind of distinguish,

00:15:16:05 - 00:15:19:28
how different groups
of transient killer whales or individuals

00:15:19:28 - 00:15:21:17
use particular environments.

00:15:21:17 - 00:15:24:06
And this was looking at pretty much
the distance to shore,

00:15:24:06 - 00:15:27:08
which was in kilometers, distance
to the continental shelf

00:15:27:08 - 00:15:30:22
break, which I'll explain again
in a second where that shelf break is.

00:15:31:04 - 00:15:32:11
And then also water depth.

00:15:33:15 - 00:15:36:02
So here's,
kind of what the effort looks like.

00:15:36:02 - 00:15:37:26
So where surveys were conducted,

00:15:37:26 - 00:15:41:20
and the continental shelf break
is this black line here.

00:15:41:20 - 00:15:42:15
It's kind of hard to see here.

00:15:42:15 - 00:15:45:03
I apologize,
but it kind of runs along the shore.

00:15:45:03 - 00:15:50:08
The continental shelf break is
typically the 200 meter isobath where

00:15:50:21 - 00:15:54:18
the continental shelf, dips to the slope
and then goes into the open ocean.

00:15:54:28 - 00:15:57:23
And that's kind of this light
blue coloration is this continental shelf.

00:15:57:23 - 00:16:01:19
And the break really is interesting
because the continental shelf narrows

00:16:01:29 - 00:16:05:26
as you head south from southern British
Columbia to southern California,

00:16:06:03 - 00:16:10:08
and can range from anywhere around
50km off the coast of Vancouver Island

00:16:10:08 - 00:16:14:05
to approximately within 12km,
even within a kilometer

00:16:14:05 - 00:16:17:05
off the central coast of California
and Southern California.

00:16:17:16 - 00:16:18:17
But you can see these red lines.

00:16:18:17 - 00:16:22:22
These are transects
so these are dedicated surveys

00:16:22:22 - 00:16:26:08
where research ships
follow a particular route along

00:16:26:17 - 00:16:30:02
these surveys, counting different marine
mammals, identifying them.

00:16:30:13 - 00:16:34:18
And this effort then is used to look
at stock abundances, different species.

00:16:34:28 - 00:16:38:29
And then also you can see in the green
here this green area small vessel surveys.

00:16:39:06 - 00:16:43:27
So we worked with our research group off
a southern Vancouver island up to UBC,

00:16:44:01 - 00:16:44:26
also the Macau

00:16:44:26 - 00:16:49:02
Fisheries Management Unit,
to really kind of try to fill in the gaps

00:16:49:02 - 00:16:53:15
of this outer coast area of Washington,
which is not surveyed regularly.

00:16:55:05 - 00:16:57:25
So the social network analysis,

00:16:57:25 - 00:17:01:07
so how this was conducted
1 we looked at individual whales.

00:17:01:07 - 00:17:04:04
So you can see here
this is a transient killer whale.

00:17:04:04 - 00:17:06:24
She has unique scars and markings.

00:17:06:24 - 00:17:10:09
You can see we also can identify them
by their eye patches

00:17:10:09 - 00:17:11:28
or the post ocular patch.

00:17:11:28 - 00:17:13:25
And each animal is unique.

00:17:13:25 - 00:17:18:05
And this researcher, spearheaded by
Michael Bigg and Ken Balcomb in the 1970s.

00:17:18:18 - 00:17:21:09
And you can see here,
where the notches on

00:17:21:09 - 00:17:24:17
the fin are kind of a distinctive feature
that stay with that animal for its life.

00:17:24:17 - 00:17:27:19
It can change slightly
or an animal can acquire new markings,

00:17:27:25 - 00:17:30:08
but primarily catalog
these whales, and we're able

00:17:30:08 - 00:17:33:17
to compare them to the different databases
to kind of come up

00:17:33:17 - 00:17:37:18
with population estimates or,
minimum counts of individuals.

00:17:38:01 - 00:17:40:04
The next step,
though, is to run this data.

00:17:40:04 - 00:17:44:18
So each group of whales that we encounter
are associated with each other.

00:17:44:27 - 00:17:46:10
For some reason. They're there.

00:17:46:10 - 00:17:49:10
They're socializing each animal
and socializing with every other animal.

00:17:49:21 - 00:17:54:24
So within a population
you have, say Whale A associating with Whale B.

00:17:54:24 - 00:17:57:05
And if Whale B is associating
with Whale C,

00:17:57:05 - 00:18:00:25
Whale A is associating with 
Whale C

00:18:00:25 - 00:18:03:27
based on the association through Whale B. 
I apologize, it's a bit confusing,

00:18:04:02 - 00:18:07:02
but all three animals
are known to associate.

00:18:07:03 - 00:18:08:29
So we used a half weight index.

00:18:08:29 - 00:18:12:21
We ran this through a program called Sock
Frog which was developed by Hale

00:18:12:21 - 00:18:13:11
Whitehead.

00:18:13:11 - 00:18:16:06
Dalhousie University
for social network analyses

00:18:16:06 - 00:18:19:06
looking at the social behavior of animals.

00:18:19:12 - 00:18:25:11
We're X here is for is identified as the
number of transient killer whale groups.

00:18:25:21 - 00:18:31:02
Y of A is the number of transient killer
whale groups where whale A was identified

00:18:31:02 - 00:18:35:04
but not Whale B
and Whale Y of B is the number of transient

00:18:35:04 - 00:18:39:08
groups were whale B was identified
but not whale A,

00:18:39:24 - 00:18:44:15
and through this you get an index
that can range anywhere between zero where

00:18:44:15 - 00:18:49:18
there's no association between individuals
to one where there's always association.

00:18:49:18 - 00:18:53:21
So that could be, say,
a mother and offspring, and this ranges

00:18:53:21 - 00:18:55:11
but it can, it can fluctuate.

00:18:55:11 - 00:18:56:20
in decimal points.

00:18:56:20 - 00:19:00:08
It could be zero, 0.5, 0.6, 0.65.

00:19:00:17 - 00:19:02:20
And it really
kind of tells us a little bit

00:19:02:20 - 00:19:04:22
about what
the social structure looks like.

00:19:04:22 - 00:19:07:02
So after running this,
we kind of found this.

00:19:07:02 - 00:19:10:29
This is kind of a quick snapshot of,
the raw data looking at,

00:19:11:18 - 00:19:15:03
associations
of over 500 different individuals.

00:19:16:02 - 00:19:17:17
And this is, this is kind

00:19:17:17 - 00:19:20:17
of what this pattern for the West Coast
population kind of looks like.

00:19:21:11 - 00:19:24:11
So results from this, we found,

00:19:24:29 - 00:19:28:20
like,
transient kills were encountered 5456

00:19:28:20 - 00:19:31:20
times from 2005 to 2021.

00:19:31:29 - 00:19:35:08
Of this 2232 had

00:19:35:24 - 00:19:38:24
geospatial location,
so latitude and longitude,

00:19:39:03 - 00:19:42:08
and had photographs to identify
all individuals present in the group.

00:19:43:12 - 00:19:46:12
The rest of that data was then discarded,
and not used in the

00:19:46:24 - 00:19:49:20
at least in the social network analysis.

00:19:49:20 - 00:19:51:27
And from this
you can see the effort here.

00:19:51:27 - 00:19:55:17
This is the effort, 
based on the surveys,

00:19:55:28 - 00:20:01:07
where we are over 49,000km of effort
from NOAA research

00:20:01:25 - 00:20:06:12
ship surveys were conducted, up to 556km
from the,

00:20:06:28 - 00:20:13:09
from the coast, over 2000km of survey
were conducted from small vessel work.

00:20:13:26 - 00:20:15:00
You can kind of see the highlight here.

00:20:15:00 - 00:20:18:15
So this is relative effort based on a lot
of the research that we're conducting.

00:20:19:05 - 00:20:20:27
So results from photo identification.

00:20:20:27 - 00:20:22:09
What did we find?

00:20:22:09 - 00:20:26:27
1-a total of 159,844
photographs were analyzed.

00:20:27:25 - 00:20:31:14
We identified 13,152.

00:20:31:29 - 00:20:34:29
I did individual identifications
of different whales.

00:20:35:11 - 00:20:39:23
But from that, a total of 556 different
whales were identified,

00:20:40:02 - 00:20:43:18
comprising 117 matrilineal groups,
which are a mother and her offspring,

00:20:43:29 - 00:20:46:20
46 roving males,

00:20:46:20 - 00:20:49:13
19 single or post reproductive females.

00:20:50:29 - 00:20:52:27
And this is kind of what we found.

00:20:52:27 - 00:20:56:08
This is the social network,
from the West Coast population

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:00:10
of individuals in each individual being
had to be seen greater than three times.

00:21:00:23 - 00:21:03:12
And you can see here, the yellow being

00:21:03:12 - 00:21:07:00
what we believe
to be this inner coast subpopulation,

00:21:07:00 - 00:21:10:29
the primarily coastal waters, 
and then we also have an outer coast

00:21:10:29 - 00:21:14:17
in red here,
which primarily occur, further offshore.

00:21:15:01 - 00:21:16:21
And there is a connection between them.

00:21:16:21 - 00:21:20:07
There is some socialization,
which matches some of the studies

00:21:20:07 - 00:21:23:09
that have been that have shown genetics
that are very similar throughout.

00:21:23:19 - 00:21:27:06
California, Oregon
British Columbia, Washington and Southeast

00:21:27:06 - 00:21:30:06
Alaska that share
this kind of genetic haplotype.

00:21:30:11 - 00:21:32:20
That's that's very similar.

00:21:32:20 - 00:21:36:16
But when you look at this spatially,
this kind of where we found

00:21:36:16 - 00:21:40:11
the real interesting thing, you know,
we now we've got these two subpopulations

00:21:40:11 - 00:21:44:25
of West Coast transients, but, 
through the geospatial analyses,

00:21:44:25 - 00:21:48:26
which were based on 11,000
individual identifications of inter

00:21:48:26 - 00:21:52:10
coast animals and 2152
outer coast identifications.

00:21:53:04 - 00:21:57:02
We found a really interesting pattern.
One being,

00:21:57:14 - 00:22:01:11
you can see here this is that map again,
but showing kind of the raw data

00:22:01:11 - 00:22:05:17
where animals are seen,
the yellow being this inner coast group,

00:22:05:29 - 00:22:08:08
and you can see
all throughout the Salish Sea,

00:22:08:08 - 00:22:09:18
throughout the West coast,
Vancouver Island.

00:22:09:18 - 00:22:10:20
But you see that black line

00:22:10:20 - 00:22:13:29
better, this is the continental shelf
break the 200 meter isobars.

00:22:14:19 - 00:22:17:11
And you can see the red being the outer
coastal link.

00:22:17:11 - 00:22:20:10
And what's really interesting, you got to
you got to think about this,

00:22:20:10 - 00:22:23:14
is that the three parameters,
as I mentioned initially being distance

00:22:23:14 - 00:22:27:29
from shore, distance from the continental
shelf break and water depth

00:22:27:29 - 00:22:29:08
through the three things that we looked

00:22:29:08 - 00:22:32:08
at, comparisons between individual whales,
between these two sub populations.

00:22:32:26 - 00:22:36:00
And what's interesting is
it might seem that there's

00:22:36:00 - 00:22:40:02
a North-South differences
for more animals inner coast to be seen in the sea

00:22:40:02 - 00:22:44:04
and the sea, and more outer coast
being seen down in Southern California

00:22:45:03 - 00:22:47:08
or Central
California and Southern California.

00:22:47:08 - 00:22:50:26
But the real kind of factor here is
what we found

00:22:50:26 - 00:22:54:26
was the continental shelf
break was the primary reason

00:22:55:00 - 00:22:59:10
why we see a bit of a, difference
in where animals are being seen.

00:22:59:27 - 00:23:00:14
So, for instance,

00:23:00:14 - 00:23:03:23
this is a histogram here
showing inner coast transient killer whales.

00:23:04:13 - 00:23:06:06
Now I'll walk you through this.

00:23:06:06 - 00:23:09:14
So on the x axis
you have the zero mark right here.

00:23:09:25 - 00:23:10:19
And the zero mark.

00:23:10:19 - 00:23:13:19
Is that they’re right on this black line,
on this continental shelf.

00:23:14:23 - 00:23:18:09
The negative numbers
means that they are inland or either in

00:23:18:09 - 00:23:19:12
coastal waters inland.

00:23:19:12 - 00:23:23:05
So you can see here like up to up
to almost 250km, 300km.

00:23:23:10 - 00:23:25:12
That's really far in here
from the shelf.

00:23:25:12 - 00:23:26:15
Break the distance.

00:23:26:15 - 00:23:30:05
Our geospatial analysis
show distance wise are really far in here.

00:23:30:13 - 00:23:34:15
And then anything positive, though,
this way would be seaward

00:23:34:16 - 00:23:35:16
of the continental shelf.

00:23:35:16 - 00:23:39:17
So further offshore, 
and as you can see from the inner coast,

00:23:39:23 - 00:23:43:21
a lot of the sightings are within
coastal waters here.

00:23:44:04 - 00:23:45:21
Now, two things to take from this.

00:23:45:21 - 00:23:48:08
One, that effort is a big issue.

00:23:48:08 - 00:23:51:16
Being that
there's a lot of effort in the Salish Sea,

00:23:51:23 - 00:23:54:19
a lot of whale watching,
a lot of people that are, that run.

00:23:54:19 - 00:23:56:26
sighting networks.

00:23:56:26 - 00:23:57:20
But the one thing

00:23:57:20 - 00:24:01:06
what we did is that we actually took out
all the sightings for this area.

00:24:01:24 - 00:24:04:25
And similarly, down here in Monterey,
you see

00:24:04:25 - 00:24:08:03
Monterey, Central Coast of California,
there's a lot there too, as well.

00:24:08:03 - 00:24:11:00
So we actually took out all the signs
right here.

00:24:11:00 - 00:24:13:25
And what we did was we then compared

00:24:13:25 - 00:24:16:29
both again,
but just for the outer continental shelf.

00:24:17:12 - 00:24:20:00
And the average distance from shore
for the inner coast

00:24:20:00 - 00:24:23:00
was actually 2.4km.

00:24:23:07 - 00:24:26:16
The average for the outer coast was around
nine kilometers

00:24:26:16 - 00:24:28:11
from the continental shelf.

00:24:28:11 - 00:24:30:15
So here's in red.

00:24:30:15 - 00:24:33:11
You could kind of see this is similar
and overlap

00:24:33:11 - 00:24:36:20
red being there's the zero mark
being right on the continental shelf.

00:24:36:29 - 00:24:40:11
Seaward, 
the furthest offshore that we sighted,

00:24:40:15 - 00:24:45:00
or encountered outer
coast animals was 121km.

00:24:45:14 - 00:24:48:20
The furthest for inner
coast was 50km offshore.

00:24:49:04 - 00:24:52:11
So they were very statistically
significantly different.

00:24:52:22 - 00:24:56:10
And this kind of really helped
with our social network analysis,

00:24:56:10 - 00:25:00:07
where we saw this dichotomy
in, in two sub populations

00:25:00:07 - 00:25:03:07
that primarily associated with each other
but occasionally met up,

00:25:03:26 - 00:25:06:19
So that's kind of what this map shows.

00:25:06:19 - 00:25:07:22
And, and this graph.

00:25:08:25 - 00:25:09:14
But they also

00:25:09:14 - 00:25:13:11
behaviorally, ecologically different,
based on where their habitats were.

00:25:13:11 - 00:25:17:20
So for instance, the inner coast
population were primarily close to shore.

00:25:17:20 - 00:25:18:29
So they foraged close to the shore.

00:25:18:29 - 00:25:21:29
And you can see here here's an animal,
you know, it's T11A,

00:25:22:07 - 00:25:25:07
he's hunting near a harbor seal
haul out near protection island.

00:25:25:12 - 00:25:28:15
They typically follow
the contours of shorelines

00:25:28:15 - 00:25:32:17
into bays, narrow inlets, 
and where they feed on pinnipeds.

00:25:32:17 - 00:25:36:24
So, there was a majority of predation
events, being on harbor seals.

00:25:37:06 - 00:25:42:00
So for both subpopulations,
we recorded 204

00:25:42:00 - 00:25:46:18
different predation events,
in inner coast animal, 64% of the diet.

00:25:46:27 - 00:25:50:19
or 64% of the predation
events were on harbor seals,

00:25:50:19 - 00:25:55:00
which were followed by harbor
porpoise, Steller sea lion, and so on.

00:25:56:17 - 00:25:57:12
And this foraging

00:25:57:12 - 00:26:00:26
behavior was really kind of first defined
by Robin Barrett and Larry

00:26:00:26 - 00:26:04:02
Dill in the 1980s and 1990s,

00:26:04:02 - 00:26:09:28
which was published in in 1995 and,
and in talks about how these animals

00:26:09:28 - 00:26:14:08
really kind of search for prey
by using coastal areas close to shore.

00:26:15:12 - 00:26:17:13
But the big problem we had was

00:26:17:13 - 00:26:21:05
there was no real definition of the outer
Coast transient killer whale population.

00:26:21:14 - 00:26:22:28
So how did they forage?

00:26:22:28 - 00:26:24:11
How did they hunt?

00:26:24:11 - 00:26:26:25
That was kind of the big question.

00:26:26:25 - 00:26:30:14
So if we wanted to make comparisons
between how inner coast animals hunt

00:26:30:15 - 00:26:33:20
and how outer coast animals hunt,
we really need to come with a baseline.

00:26:33:20 - 00:26:39:06
So myself working with, Larry Dill,
who was actually a coauthor and supervisor

00:26:39:06 - 00:26:43:07
for Robin Baird in the 90s, him
and I teamed up with others,

00:26:43:14 - 00:26:47:25
and we developed a foraging behavior study
for the outer coast population.

00:26:48:08 - 00:26:51:01
And kind of what we found
was that these animals forage

00:26:51:01 - 00:26:53:15
through these rare observations
along the coast.

00:26:53:15 - 00:26:57:28
They feed primarily on the shelf
break, following the contours of canyons.

00:26:58:19 - 00:27:02:07
And they feed on pelagic, 
pinnipeds and small cetaceans.

00:27:02:17 - 00:27:07:02
But the real question was we needed more
information than just rare observations.

00:27:07:17 - 00:27:10:18
So for that, we ended up going through
a submarine canyon system off

00:27:10:18 - 00:27:15:05
the central coast of California, to study
a group of these outer coast transients,

00:27:15:16 - 00:27:18:16
that were seen off of, Monterey,

00:27:18:20 - 00:27:22:03
and Monterey Bay, California
was the perfect area just because it was

00:27:22:20 - 00:27:26:23
primarily, 
accessible to us for getting out there

00:27:26:23 - 00:27:30:07
to actually observe animals in an offshore
kind of open ocean environment.

00:27:30:17 - 00:27:33:27
And a lot of the animals, other animals
that were seen in other canyon systems

00:27:33:27 - 00:27:36:27
along the Pacific coast were animals
that were also seen in the Monterey.

00:27:37:08 - 00:27:40:08
So this kind of enabled us to,

00:27:40:12 - 00:27:43:12
use this area as kind of, a metric.

00:27:43:29 - 00:27:46:29
So our team went down in the early, 
the mid 2000s,

00:27:47:05 - 00:27:50:21
and we ended up starting to catalog different individual whales.

00:27:51:01 - 00:27:54:01
I can see here here's
the Monterey Bay submarine Canyon system.

00:27:54:08 - 00:27:57:17
It's the largest submarine
canyon on the US West Coast.

00:27:57:20 - 00:28:00:13
There’s a big canyon that bisects
the middle of the bay.

00:28:00:13 - 00:28:01:22
It's actually a system of canyons.

00:28:01:22 - 00:28:04:22
So you have the major Monterey Canyon,
but you also have the Soquel 

00:28:04:27 - 00:28:06:12
the Carmel Canyon.

00:28:06:12 - 00:28:10:10
And, this was an area where we were able
to access and look at individuals.

00:28:11:02 - 00:28:13:08
So we conducted where we called
focal follows.

00:28:13:08 - 00:28:17:00
So a focal follow is where you follow
a group of animals

00:28:17:00 - 00:28:21:14
for greater than 10 to 15 minutes,
collecting information on photo

00:28:21:14 - 00:28:24:14
identification of individuals, association
patterns,

00:28:24:14 - 00:28:28:02
diving, synchronization of movements,
how they feed.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:31:14
And we're usually within 50m of animals.

00:28:31:26 - 00:28:35:00
And typically we'd move
our vessel in closer,

00:28:35:09 - 00:28:38:08
when a group of animals were,

00:28:38:08 - 00:28:41:08
making a predation event
so we can identify the prey.

00:28:41:26 - 00:28:44:16
Here's our effort for Monterey Bay,

00:28:44:16 - 00:28:47:16
from 2006 to 2018.

00:28:47:26 - 00:28:50:26
And you can see here
here's the tracks of our vessel.

00:28:50:26 - 00:28:53:26
And this was usually within 50m of whales.

00:28:53:27 - 00:28:56:28
And from that we were able to also collect
a lot of information.

00:28:56:28 - 00:29:01:26
So that was 100 focal follows (studying animal behavior)
161 sightings from whale watchers.

00:29:02:05 - 00:29:05:08
And this turned out to be 323 occurrences.

00:29:05:18 - 00:29:09:23
So another goal from this study was to try
to look at the seasonal patterns

00:29:09:23 - 00:29:12:04
or occurrences of transient killer
whales.

00:29:12:04 - 00:29:13:17
Here's actually a colleague of mine.

00:29:13:17 - 00:29:16:25
Trying to document a killer
whale feeding on a California sea lion.

00:29:17:12 - 00:29:19:10
And she was, bringing up some tissue.

00:29:20:13 - 00:29:22:28
And you can see, here's the here's
all the sightings

00:29:22:28 - 00:29:25:28
for transients in the area
which were in that study.

00:29:26:26 - 00:29:29:19
But from that, because we were doing these 
focal follows (animal observations)

00:29:29:19 - 00:29:33:13
within 50m, we were able to kind of
every five minutes, we took a GPS

00:29:33:23 - 00:29:37:04
recording and we were able
to kind of track the movements of whales.

00:29:37:22 - 00:29:41:03
And through these 100
different focal follows,

00:29:41:06 - 00:29:46:09
we kind of we were able to develop,
we were able to develop definitions

00:29:46:09 - 00:29:48:00
for different behaviors
that were very similar.

00:29:48:00 - 00:29:50:08
As we looked
at this in the spatial analysis,

00:29:50:08 - 00:29:53:11
one being traveling
behavior was very kind of straightforward.

00:29:53:12 - 00:29:55:24
They were moving
between areas of foraging.

00:29:55:24 - 00:29:57:29
Feeding was very stationary.

00:29:57:29 - 00:30:00:11
This was actually a feeding event
on a Gray whale calf.

00:30:00:11 - 00:30:02:11
It was very much like in one area.

00:30:02:11 - 00:30:03:29
It was it wasn't much movement.

00:30:03:29 - 00:30:07:13
But then you could see open
water foraging, which was very zigzagging.

00:30:07:13 - 00:30:10:00
The animals were kind of out
the open, just kind of moving.

00:30:10:00 - 00:30:13:14
But the most interesting, result from
the study was that transient killer whales

00:30:13:14 - 00:30:17:21
actually use the outer coast
transient group actually use a very unique

00:30:17:21 - 00:30:21:23
foraging behavior called
what we call shelf rake or canyon foraging.

00:30:23:04 - 00:30:23:24
And you

00:30:23:24 - 00:30:26:24
can see this animal here,
this group here,

00:30:26:26 - 00:30:30:23
they kind of follow the contours, 
right along the shelf break.

00:30:31:18 - 00:30:34:03
And then they kind of cross
over to the other side again,

00:30:34:03 - 00:30:35:11
kind of search the edge.

00:30:35:11 - 00:30:39:09
And these, these edges of canyons
actually are areas of upwelling

00:30:39:09 - 00:30:42:29
and down within where nutrient
rich water gets pushed to the surface,

00:30:43:07 - 00:30:46:24
or also brought down into the bottom
and transported offshore.

00:30:47:01 - 00:30:51:18
And in that area, typically California
sea lions, elephant seals, forage.

00:30:52:03 - 00:30:54:22
And we were able to look at differences
in water depth.

00:30:54:22 - 00:30:57:17
Where gray whales were primarily being hunted.

00:30:57:17 - 00:31:00:17
And, and kind of here's
the different prey species.

00:31:00:21 - 00:31:04:06
You can see here, California's sea lion,
which was the dominant grey

00:31:04:09 - 00:31:06:23
you can see this in this Diamond, Red diamond.

00:31:06:23 - 00:31:11:12
It was a lot along the shelf break
and just over the slope, of the canyon.

00:31:11:12 - 00:31:14:25
But you also had northern elephant seals,
which were much deeper.

00:31:14:25 - 00:31:17:25
So you see these yellow little triangles

00:31:18:00 - 00:31:20:28
or diamonds right here,
right over the slope.

00:31:20:28 - 00:31:23:26
And gray whale calves down
here are another obvious one.

00:31:23:26 - 00:31:27:16
And the stars, they were kind
of spread out, but also in deeper water.

00:31:29:11 - 00:31:31:05
So from this,

00:31:31:05 - 00:31:33:24
all these sightings, these occurrences.

00:31:33:24 - 00:31:36:00
So as I mentioned,
we looked at occurrences.

00:31:36:00 - 00:31:39:21
So a sighting was any period
that a killer was reported.

00:31:40:06 - 00:31:44:18
But because a group of killer
whales can be seen multiple days in a row,

00:31:45:04 - 00:31:45:19
we didn't.

00:31:45:19 - 00:31:49:23
We wanted to try to deal with effort bias
by looking at maybe

00:31:49:25 - 00:31:53:20
how do we define the presence or absence
of a group of transient killer whales

00:31:54:05 - 00:31:57:05
to do that, if an animal was seen

00:31:57:06 - 00:31:59:25
five days in a row

00:31:59:25 - 00:32:02:04
but then wasn't seen, the sixth day?

00:32:02:04 - 00:32:05:26
That five days was one sighting

00:32:06:09 - 00:32:10:19
or one occurrence of that group
of that animal or that group of whales.

00:32:11:04 - 00:32:14:06
And then if it was not seen the sixth day,
the next day after,

00:32:14:08 - 00:32:15:18
and was re-sighted the next day after.

00:32:15:18 - 00:32:18:27
So the seventh day,
that would then be a new occurrence.

00:32:19:05 - 00:32:22:07
So we were looking at 
when the killer whales

00:32:22:07 - 00:32:25:07
were present in the bay
and at what time of the year.

00:32:25:22 - 00:32:29:07
And I'll kind of walk you through this
graph here, multiple graphs.

00:32:29:07 - 00:32:31:17
You can see
the number of occurrences here,

00:32:31:17 - 00:32:34:17
and you can see through the winter
very looked.

00:32:34:23 - 00:32:36:14
There isn't as many whales cited.

00:32:36:14 - 00:32:40:12
But then in the spring, particularly around April, May and June,

00:32:40:12 - 00:32:46:02
we had a spike in sightings, and similar,
you know, a big dip again July, August

00:32:46:02 - 00:32:49:02
but then another smaller peak
in September, October.

00:32:49:16 - 00:32:53:08
And what we looked at, too, was what prey

00:32:53:08 - 00:32:56:26
might be available based on
and what their lifecycles were.

00:32:57:09 - 00:33:00:28
So three dominant prey that were observed
mostly were gray

00:33:00:28 - 00:33:03:28
whale calves, California sea
lions and northern elephant seals.

00:33:04:08 - 00:33:06:26
California sea lions being the number one prey

00:33:06:26 - 00:33:09:26
species, making up 49% of the diet.

00:33:10:10 - 00:33:12:18
Gray whale calves being around

00:33:12:18 - 00:33:15:18
20 and elephant seals around 7 to 9%.

00:33:15:22 - 00:33:18:21
And their life
cycles were quite interesting.

00:33:18:21 - 00:33:23:26
So during the spring, gray
whale calves are primarily moving north

00:33:24:01 - 00:33:28:18
with their mothers, as they head up
the coast from Mexico into California,

00:33:28:29 - 00:33:32:12
up to either Oregon, Washington versus
Columbia, Alaska into the Bering Sea,

00:33:32:12 - 00:33:35:18
depending on which population. California sea lions

00:33:35:18 - 00:33:39:29
though also show, different movements,
especially in the fall.

00:33:39:29 - 00:33:43:06
There's the movement of males
north from the Channel Islands

00:33:43:06 - 00:33:46:29
of Southern California, up
into the waters of the Salish Sea

00:33:46:29 - 00:33:50:12
is for as well as for the, 
as well as off of Washington, Oregon.

00:33:51:05 - 00:33:53:17
And then elephant seals
have a really complex period

00:33:53:17 - 00:33:56:26
where you get, females

00:33:56:26 - 00:33:59:29
coming in to molt in the spring.

00:34:00:25 - 00:34:04:26
But you also have a period in the fall
where there's, we believe

00:34:04:26 - 00:34:08:18
to be young weaners and juveniles
that are, also coming up to molt.

00:34:08:23 - 00:34:11:24
And in the winter, though,
you have a period where there is

00:34:11:24 - 00:34:15:01
adult males and it’s in the breeding
period of California for elephant seals.

00:34:16:11 - 00:34:18:25
So kind of look at this more though, 

00:34:18:25 - 00:34:22:11
we took, our data
and we also compared it to our colleagues

00:34:22:11 - 00:34:26:07
data on gray whale calf abundance,

00:34:26:07 - 00:34:31:09
seen throughout, 2006 to 2021.

00:34:31:20 - 00:34:35:03
And what you can see here is that there's
a peak in the number of identified transients

00:34:35:08 - 00:34:38:25
throughout those years,
particularly in April, May and June.

00:34:38:25 - 00:34:42:19
And you can see here, gray
whale calves also peak at that period.

00:34:42:24 - 00:34:44:22
And why you don't see gray
whale calves past here is

00:34:44:22 - 00:34:46:24
because at this point in June
and July, gray

00:34:46:24 - 00:34:48:13
whale calves are further north
in California.

00:34:48:13 - 00:34:51:13
In those census work on gray whales are completed.

00:34:51:18 - 00:34:54:15
So at this period, there's definitely,

00:34:54:15 - 00:34:58:01
at least a correlation between these two,

00:34:58:22 - 00:35:01:22
between these two species.

00:35:01:29 - 00:35:05:14
Predation involved hunts on California sea lions,

00:35:05:18 - 00:35:08:26
and dolphins, usually some photographs, a Minke whale here.

00:35:08:26 - 00:35:11:26
And you can see an elephant seal,
juvenile here as well.

00:35:12:10 - 00:35:14:15
So different, lots of different prey.

00:35:14:15 - 00:35:17:09
So from this we were able to compare

00:35:17:09 - 00:35:20:09
at least the differences in prey
that were observed from both

00:35:20:22 - 00:35:24:28
the inner coast group was really, 
primarily,

00:35:25:08 - 00:35:28:18
harbor seals, like I said, over 64%,

00:35:28:29 - 00:35:33:04
similar to the harbor porpoise
so very coastal species to sea lions

00:35:33:05 - 00:35:38:25
Where the outer coast group, are much more focused on, 
prey that were more pelagic

00:35:39:00 - 00:35:40:29
or opens with California seals,
which are known

00:35:40:29 - 00:35:43:29
to feed further from shore,
especially along the shelf break.

00:35:44:22 - 00:35:47:09
Gray whale calves, though
were kind of an oddball.

00:35:47:09 - 00:35:49:29
They're, actually a coastal species.

00:35:49:29 - 00:35:54:06
But because of this particular adaptation
to hunting gray whale calves,

00:35:54:16 - 00:35:57:24
as they crossed into deep water
from shallow water off Monterey Bay.

00:35:58:03 - 00:36:01:20
That seems to be a unique situation,
or at least in central California.

00:36:01:27 - 00:36:05:02
But then throughout the other, you know,
we saw elephant seals and some other

00:36:05:02 - 00:36:08:21
dolphin species as well as the common dolphin, things like that.

00:36:10:16 - 00:36:12:14
So habitat use,

00:36:12:14 - 00:36:16:13
so we decided to try to model
this behavior, model this habitat

00:36:16:13 - 00:36:20:20
So 90% of Inner coast
transient killer whales occurred,

00:36:21:23 - 00:36:24:23
within 5.56km from shore,

00:36:25:09 - 00:36:29:26
and less than 3% were seen further
than ten kilometers from shore.

00:36:30:05 - 00:36:33:23
And that includes the NOAA, extensive NOAA surveys that were offshore.

00:36:34:05 - 00:36:36:12
Similar outer coast transients.

00:36:36:12 - 00:36:40:08
90% of all outer coast transients
occurred within 20km of either

00:36:40:08 - 00:36:43:01
side of the continental shelf break.

00:36:43:01 - 00:36:45:20
And as you can see here,
as we modeled this habitat,

00:36:45:20 - 00:36:48:11
this is kind of what it looks like.

00:36:48:11 - 00:36:50:07
You have the inner coast group here

00:36:50:07 - 00:36:53:09
in yellow again,
really kind of close to the shore.

00:36:53:09 - 00:36:54:25
This is kind of their habitat.

00:36:54:25 - 00:36:58:20
And then you have the outer coast group,
along the continental shelf break here.

00:36:58:29 - 00:37:01:27
And on both sides.

00:37:01:27 - 00:37:04:04
What was really interesting
is this overlap.

00:37:04:04 - 00:37:07:24
You can see this, this
yellow and red, hash line.

00:37:08:06 - 00:37:12:11
This here is where a lot of the sightings
of outer coastal intercoastal.

00:37:12:28 - 00:37:13:25
And there wasn't many.

00:37:13:25 - 00:37:15:16
There was. We had about 16 or 17.

00:37:17:08 - 00:37:17:26
Actual

00:37:17:26 - 00:37:21:01
encounters where both groups
were together or sighted.

00:37:21:01 - 00:37:24:16
And it was primarily
when both habitats converged.

00:37:25:02 - 00:37:29:18
So, for instance, a lot of sightings
happened right in the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

00:37:29:18 - 00:37:32:06
And there's a big canyon.

00:37:32:06 - 00:37:34:20
The Juan du Fuca canyon.
That kind of comes right in.

00:37:34:20 - 00:37:37:11
And this is kind of where we see
a lot of the outer coast entering.

00:37:37:11 - 00:37:42:08
They usually typically do not go into,
the Salish further into the Salish Sea,

00:37:42:08 - 00:37:46:04
but primarily just in this Juan de Fuca area and then similar down here

00:37:46:11 - 00:37:49:06
off of the southern Oregon coast
and into California,

00:37:49:06 - 00:37:52:12
with the furthest sighting of
of at least the inner coast group of transients

00:37:52:17 - 00:37:56:02
being as far south as Monterey
and then the outer coast

00:37:56:03 - 00:37:59:03
then takes over as the shelf break
really extends close to shore.

00:37:59:29 - 00:38:02:29
And this is primarily
because the habitat differs.

00:38:03:07 - 00:38:07:09
You look at where the harbor seals like to haul out

00:38:07:09 - 00:38:10:29
these very convoluted areas
where there's, lots of haul out sites

00:38:11:08 - 00:38:15:07
that kind of decreases and disappears
as you head south here,

00:38:15:23 - 00:38:16:25
where the outer coast transients

00:38:16:25 - 00:38:21:05
Similarly, don't go into here because they rely really on this open water habitat.

00:38:23:02 - 00:38:25:22
From the social network analysis, though,

00:38:25:22 - 00:38:29:15
the most exciting thing we found
was evidence, potentially for a third

00:38:29:15 - 00:38:33:14
population that we believe to be, 
an oceanic group of transient killer whales

00:38:33:26 - 00:38:39:11
that occurs further from shore,
up to what we believe to be three, 400km.

00:38:39:24 - 00:38:43:16
These animals all had, you know,
similar morphologies to transients,

00:38:43:16 - 00:38:46:16
a very pointed dorsal fins,
solid saddle patches.

00:38:47:02 - 00:38:50:05
But some of them had also very,
thin saddle patches.

00:38:50:15 - 00:38:53:01
And they were all seen really far off.

00:38:53:01 - 00:38:54:27
So this is once again,
here's the shelf break here.

00:38:54:27 - 00:38:57:06
And this dashed line, the shelf
breaking slope.

00:38:57:06 - 00:39:00:11
But most of these animals
were occurring much further from shore

00:39:00:11 - 00:39:01:20
than anywhere else, and none of them

00:39:01:20 - 00:39:05:21
could be linked in association to either
the inner coast or outer coast.

00:39:05:21 - 00:39:08:24
And they formed their
own, their own, cluster.

00:39:10:01 - 00:39:12:29
You can see here a very narrow
saddle patch.

00:39:12:29 - 00:39:15:13
And what's really interesting is this,

00:39:15:13 - 00:39:20:15
these markings, these elliptical
or crescent shape markings are

00:39:20:16 - 00:39:25:22
what we believe to be a caused by a cookie
cutter shark, which is a mesopelagic

00:39:26:09 - 00:39:30:07
deep water species,
or it’s a parasitic shark species

00:39:30:07 - 00:39:34:09
that actually go up to large vertebrates
tuna, other sharks, whales.

00:39:34:16 - 00:39:36:29
And they take off these nasty bite wounds.

00:39:36:29 - 00:39:39:23
And they have these razor sharp teeth.

00:39:39:23 - 00:39:41:12
They'll go up and rasp a hole.

00:39:41:12 - 00:39:43:11
And but they're only found.

00:39:43:11 - 00:39:43:29
What's really interesting

00:39:43:29 - 00:39:45:27
is that these sharks are only really found in deep

00:39:45:27 - 00:39:50:01
pelagic offshore waters, kind of providing some evidence 
that at least these transients

00:39:50:01 - 00:39:53:01
are making some open ocean movements.

00:39:53:26 - 00:39:55:23
So in conclusion,

00:39:57:07 - 00:39:59:25
this analysis really
shows that the West Coast transient killer

00:39:59:25 - 00:40:03:24
whale population forms at least two
distinct groups that are socially as well

00:40:03:24 - 00:40:06:24
as spatially distinct
in the California current system,

00:40:06:28 - 00:40:10:23
both populations show
distinct differences in behavioral ecology

00:40:11:01 - 00:40:13:13
that was adapted to specific habitats

00:40:13:13 - 00:40:16:09
as well, as this study highlights
a potential third population that frequents

00:40:16:09 - 00:40:18:16
oceanic waters
beyond the continental shelf.

00:40:18:16 - 00:40:21:25
And finally, this provides a foundation
for further studies

00:40:22:03 - 00:40:25:14
as well as, more data
that can be used for stock assessments.

00:40:25:26 - 00:40:29:10
And I'm happy to say right now that this,
this has been submitted

00:40:29:10 - 00:40:34:13
for publication, and we're excited to, 
to hopefully have this come out very soon.

00:40:35:17 - 00:40:39:06
Acknowledgements: there's a lot of people 
that are involved in this research,

00:40:39:16 - 00:40:42:24
including, my supervisory committee,

00:40:42:24 - 00:40:45:25
Dr. Andrew Trites, Dr. Lawrence Dill, and Dr. Maria Auger-Methe (accent on “e” in Methe)

00:40:45:25 - 00:40:49:13
We had a lot of support from NOAA,
a number of researchers from NOAA,

00:40:49:22 - 00:40:53:09
as well as the Oregon State University,
who we continue to work with.

00:40:53:20 - 00:40:58:28
As well as Pacific Wildlife Foundation and other research support like ACCESS (see our podcast episode with them!)

00:40:58:28 - 00:41:02:00
which is, a great group of researchers
that are working off

00:41:02:00 - 00:41:05:00
the central Coast of California
and a number of whale watchers.

00:41:05:10 - 00:41:07:25
So with that, I like to thank everyone.

00:41:07:25 - 00:41:10:03
And, I appreciate you having me on this
call.

00:41:10:03 - 00:41:13:02
Josh, that was quite the presentation.

00:41:13:02 - 00:41:14:17
Quite the number of people

00:41:14:17 - 00:41:18:09
that have collaborated with you on these
this research, this study.

00:41:18:19 - 00:41:20:26
Thank you for all of that information.

00:41:20:26 - 00:41:23:24
Again, I'm Leigh Anne Lindsey, host today

00:41:23:24 - 00:41:27:08
of the sixth annual Ocean Life Symposium.

00:41:27:16 - 00:41:31:10
And with us as well, whale experts

00:41:31:10 - 00:41:34:26
and seal experts from the Mendonoma Whale & Seal Study,

00:41:35:02 - 00:41:38:27
Scott and Tree Mercer,
who founded this symposium

00:41:38:27 - 00:41:42:25
and have been doing so much great work
along the Mendocino, Sonoma coast

00:41:43:02 - 00:41:44:14
as well as the East Coast.

00:41:44:14 - 00:41:47:14
So I'm going to invite both of you to come in

00:41:47:17 - 00:41:51:08
and talk with Josh
a little bit about his presentation.

00:41:52:22 - 00:41:53:14
Yeah, it was wonderful.

00:41:53:14 - 00:41:55:17
Josh and,

00:41:55:17 - 00:41:59:07
an orca expert,
I am not I've we've seen a handful

00:41:59:07 - 00:42:02:07
off the Point Arena peninsula out here,

00:42:02:15 - 00:42:05:22
and I spent over 20 years on the East coast

00:42:05:23 - 00:42:09:11
in the Gulf of Maine up to 165  days a year.

00:42:09:13 - 00:42:11:12
Never saw an Orca.

00:42:11:12 - 00:42:12:20
And a man who was writing a book

00:42:12:20 - 00:42:15:20
on Orcas kept coming out of my boat, asking me questions.

00:42:16:26 - 00:42:20:25
He actually won an award for the book,
but, I said, I can't help you.

00:42:20:26 - 00:42:21:23
We just don't see them.

00:42:21:23 - 00:42:23:29
And he caught on
after about eight trips with me

00:42:23:29 - 00:42:26:22
and he kept coming out
hoping to see an orca.

00:42:26:22 - 00:42:28:01
He wrote ‘Orcas of the Gulf’ (Gerard Gromley)

00:42:28:01 - 00:42:31:01
If you ever run across that book. It’s a great book.

00:42:31:11 - 00:42:33:28
But, we didn't have any firsthand sightings.

00:42:33:28 - 00:42:36:28
Well, one thing I've been wondering, and,

00:42:37:05 - 00:42:41:28
we get a lot of wild we hear a lot of wild
estimates of, percentages of,

00:42:42:20 - 00:42:45:20
gray whale calves that, orcas take,

00:42:45:25 - 00:42:49:16
I've heard everywhere
from 30 to as many as 80%.

00:42:49:16 - 00:42:50:26
You have any any idea?

00:42:52:01 - 00:42:53:03
I'm gonna pin you down 

00:42:53:03 - 00:42:55:23
Just because we have such
wild numbers are wondering.

00:42:55:23 - 00:42:56:02
Yeah.

00:42:56:02 - 00:42:58:10
So it's, you know, from our analysis,

00:42:58:10 - 00:43:02:14
we 20% were of observations,
were gray whale calves.

00:43:02:16 - 00:43:06:14
And likely it's a lot higher
depending on the population.

00:43:06:14 - 00:43:11:03
So what's really interesting is that, 
the outer coast group are kind of,

00:43:11:17 - 00:43:15:06
you know, at least part of the year
and spatially in Monterey

00:43:15:10 - 00:43:18:07
it’s kind of where they hunt gray
whale calves

00:43:18:07 - 00:43:21:00
And then there's another population,
at least in the Gulf of Alaska,

00:43:21:00 - 00:43:24:02
up and towards the Aleutian Islands, that also 
hunt gray whale calves

00:43:24:02 - 00:43:27:02
that are different
from the ones in Monterey.

00:43:27:08 - 00:43:30:04
So it likely is anywhere
between 20 to 30.

00:43:30:04 - 00:43:34:02
I can see 20 to 30% being a good estimate,
but that's really hard to say.

00:43:34:08 - 00:43:36:23
We're
also kind of diving into I'm collaborating

00:43:36:23 - 00:43:39:24
with Oregon State University,
and we're working on a paper now.

00:43:39:24 - 00:43:43:00
And and what we found is the inner coast grouping, which,

00:43:43:01 - 00:43:47:06
you know, most people see in the Salish
Sea, Puget sound, as I mentioned,

00:43:47:17 - 00:43:51:05
hunt harbor seals,
but in Oregon waters there, actually,

00:43:51:11 - 00:43:56:23
we've had a number of successful predations, by them, 
on gray whale calves off Oregon.

00:43:57:01 - 00:43:59:05
So that was actually
that's a bit of an eye opener,

00:43:59:05 - 00:44:02:05
because a lot of these animals
really don't focus on gray whales.

00:44:02:05 - 00:44:04:02
Or ever been seen hunting gray whales.

00:44:04:02 - 00:44:05:18
So that was kind of a big one.

00:44:05:18 - 00:44:08:18
And we’re drafting a manuscript
for that right now.

00:44:08:19 - 00:44:12:06
And that was so I it all depends.

00:44:12:06 - 00:44:13:28
I think,

00:44:13:28 - 00:44:16:26
I think if you were to take
all the observed predation events

00:44:16:26 - 00:44:19:03
that were recorded,
plus all the strandings

00:44:19:03 - 00:44:22:03
of gray whales that are presumed
to have been killed by killer whales.

00:44:22:08 - 00:44:24:14
And then you came up with an estimate
that way that,

00:44:24:14 - 00:44:27:22
you know, I think it would
be potentially around 20 to 30%.

00:44:29:07 - 00:44:29:19
Okay.

00:44:29:19 - 00:44:33:10
Thanks.
That's a more realistic, estimate.

00:44:33:10 - 00:44:36:19
than I've heard. When
we do see orcas off

00:44:36:19 - 00:44:39:19
of Point Arena Peninsula.

00:44:40:04 - 00:44:43:04
it’s another question
I wanted to ask you is,

00:44:43:26 - 00:44:46:16
it's always, I think, almost not.

00:44:46:16 - 00:44:50:14
Not every time, but almost every time
when we have orcas come through,

00:44:51:20 - 00:44:55:00
they come through like NASCAR, you know, a
lot of splashing and this and that.

00:44:55:00 - 00:44:57:07
And usually gray whales are northbound.

00:44:57:07 - 00:44:59:26
Most of the sightings we've had
and they don't

00:44:59:26 - 00:45:03:02
they don't react at all that we can tell
unless their blood pressure goes up.

00:45:03:02 - 00:45:06:11
But there's just no no reaction at all.

00:45:06:29 - 00:45:10:10
And I'm wondering what, if that's normal

00:45:11:07 - 00:45:15:11
or how do they know, is there
certain calls that the orcas make

00:45:15:11 - 00:45:19:10
that would make them more nervous
or want to speed up?

00:45:20:12 - 00:45:23:02
anything you can add to that?

00:45:23:02 - 00:45:23:10
Yeah.

00:45:23:10 - 00:45:26:27
You know, honestly, it's it could depend
on the population of transients.

00:45:26:27 - 00:45:29:05
You know, I think,

00:45:29:05 - 00:45:31:21
you know,
we also our colleagues in Oregon,

00:45:31:21 - 00:45:34:21
when we see our data on transients,
we shared with,

00:45:35:03 - 00:45:38:03
you know, our colleagues at Oregon State
University also focused on gray whales.

00:45:38:19 - 00:45:41:21
And when they're off the Oregon coast,
they even found that the gray

00:45:41:21 - 00:45:44:21
whales don't seem to show
any sort of reaction to transients.

00:45:45:15 - 00:45:48:29
And it could be that some of the transient
killer whales that are present

00:45:49:12 - 00:45:52:08
aren't really specializing in hunting
gray whales.

00:45:52:08 - 00:45:55:08
There's harbor seals available.

00:45:55:14 - 00:45:58:02
It also could be that, you know,

00:45:58:02 - 00:46:00:23
that where the gray whales are situated.

00:46:00:23 - 00:46:02:05
So if they're really close to shore,

00:46:02:05 - 00:46:04:26
they may feel more confident
that they're not going to get attacked,

00:46:04:26 - 00:46:07:26
because they kind of got the upper hand
of being in shallow water.

00:46:08:01 - 00:46:10:25
Where, with transients, it’s so much 
more dangerous for them to hunt.

00:46:10:25 - 00:46:15:14
I think it all depends on,
you know, the state of the animal feed as well.

00:46:15:24 - 00:46:20:00
So in Monterey, the gray whales
don't

00:46:20:00 - 00:46:23:24
Or, you know, when they cross that canyon,
they're kind of they're sitting ducks.

00:46:23:24 - 00:46:25:26
It's, it's a very deep water.

00:46:25:26 - 00:46:28:21
And those other constraints, it's
really knowing how to hunt in there.

00:46:28:21 - 00:46:29:24
But in along the coast,

00:46:29:24 - 00:46:33:04
we've seen transients abandon hunts, because it becomes too close.

00:46:33:23 - 00:46:37:08
But we did have a really cool sighting off of 
Northern California, Eureka actually,

00:46:38:17 - 00:46:42:14
of a group of inner coast animals and outer coast animals

00:46:42:14 - 00:46:44:01
And what was really, really odd,

00:46:44:01 - 00:46:48:11
and they actually successfully, well,
they killed the animal but didn’t feed on it.

00:46:48:11 - 00:46:49:21
And the gray whale actually washed ashore.

00:46:49:21 - 00:46:50:16
And that was last year.

00:46:50:16 - 00:46:53:16
That was
that was a very interesting sighting.

00:46:54:00 - 00:46:56:16
Now Josh, why would they not feed upon it

00:46:56:16 - 00:47:01:28
after going through
expanding the energy and, and was that a,

00:47:01:28 - 00:47:04:28
a practice session for

00:47:05:03 - 00:47:07:26
maybe the young ones in the group?

00:47:07:26 - 00:47:10:29
Yes. So for that particular situation,
I think it was more of a

00:47:11:09 - 00:47:14:09
I forgot to mention,
it was more of a situational,

00:47:14:16 - 00:47:18:07
instance where the animal actually
kind of went towards shore.

00:47:18:07 - 00:47:21:22
It, it basically swam
really quick towards the shore and died.

00:47:22:03 - 00:47:24:29
And basically killer whales, it was
too dangerous for them to try to get it.

00:47:24:29 - 00:47:28:23
But, you know, I did have a really cool
encounter that was sent to me from NOAA

00:47:28:24 - 00:47:32:06
off the outer coast of Washington,
where I

00:47:32:29 - 00:47:35:27
it was a drone footage of killer
whales, actually with a Gray

00:47:35:27 - 00:47:37:17
carcass, they had killed it,

00:47:37:17 - 00:47:39:09
and the carcass
was actually drifting inshore,

00:47:39:09 - 00:47:41:20
and the killer whales were going up
and grabbing the flukes

00:47:41:20 - 00:47:44:13
and humping their food,
basically trying to push

00:47:44:13 - 00:47:47:18
the animal, the carcass further offshore
to feed on it.

00:47:47:26 - 00:47:51:11
So that was that was really interesting
and interesting behavior that was kind of,

00:47:51:14 - 00:47:54:14
new to us
that was never seen before that.

00:47:54:16 - 00:47:56:11
Oh, it's very variable.

00:47:56:11 - 00:47:58:07
That's clever of them for sure.

00:47:58:07 - 00:48:02:15
And, and I know how you know
well, skilled they are at that.

00:48:02:26 - 00:48:06:26
Josh, I had a question about that,
that the, the new newer population, the

00:48:06:26 - 00:48:07:21
offshore.

00:48:09:10 - 00:48:10:10
Will will

00:48:10:10 - 00:48:13:10
there eventually be genetic analysis to.

00:48:13:13 - 00:48:13:21
Yeah.

00:48:13:21 - 00:48:17:02
You know, you mentioned the saddle patches.

00:48:17:18 - 00:48:18:05
That.

00:48:18:05 - 00:48:21:22
And I know that that is a,
a genetic trait.

00:48:21:22 - 00:48:26:18
So, will genetics help you to understand
the population even better?

00:48:27:21 - 00:48:29:18
Yeah. So that's a great question.

00:48:29:18 - 00:48:31:11
So, that's kind of the goal.

00:48:31:11 - 00:48:33:20
I'm actually two days away
from flying to California.

00:48:33:20 - 00:48:37:21
I'm, going on a NOAA ship for 
20 days off central coast of California.

00:48:37:21 - 00:48:39:29
Where hopefully we’re going
to look for these animals.

00:48:39:29 - 00:48:44:23
I get a pretty regular reports
from them right now.

00:48:44:23 - 00:48:47:25
NOAA's Southwest Fisheries
is actually on a survey, and that's

00:48:47:25 - 00:48:50:25
something we talked about is getting more
biopsy samples to do genetics.

00:48:51:20 - 00:48:52:13
Right now

00:48:52:13 - 00:48:56:21
there's been about six sightings,
on the cruises that have been happening.

00:48:56:22 - 00:48:59:22
Most of them have been all outer coast transients 
that we know who they are.

00:49:00:06 - 00:49:05:07
But these oceanic animals,
they do occur at least once every survey.

00:49:05:07 - 00:49:11:11
And, unfortunately, until recently,
when we started our catalog work,

00:49:11:19 - 00:49:14:13
it wasn't really a, of interest

00:49:14:13 - 00:49:17:13
that much to know what to really try to,
to get that, that data.

00:49:17:13 - 00:49:18:27
But now we kind of kind of

00:49:18:27 - 00:49:21:24
came up with this, like,
this is an interesting group of animals

00:49:21:24 - 00:49:23:10
and Phil Morin who's the lead

00:49:23:10 - 00:49:27:14
geneticist is very interested
in trying to piece together if these are a

00:49:27:14 - 00:49:28:16
separate population as well.

00:49:28:16 - 00:49:30:02
So that's kind of the goal now

00:49:30:02 - 00:49:32:05
is to try to get the genetics
because you're likely right.

00:49:32:05 - 00:49:35:05
There's
most likely a different type of genetics

00:49:35:06 - 00:49:37:04
or a different haplotype
or something going on.

00:49:37:04 - 00:49:38:03
Some of these animals.

00:49:38:03 - 00:49:40:21
Yeah, you’d have to think so
that's that's really fascinating.

00:49:40:21 - 00:49:44:18
I mean, this is, you know, just,
you know, very exciting news.

00:49:44:18 - 00:49:46:07
Thank you for that.

00:49:46:07 - 00:49:49:23
I'm curious too, as you brought up

00:49:49:23 - 00:49:53:09
a couple of terms,
I'd like you to talk to a little bit more.

00:49:53:09 - 00:49:56:10
And that's both social and geospatial.

00:49:58:14 - 00:50:01:11
So social being the association pattern.

00:50:01:11 - 00:50:03:06
So we were all out for coffee.

00:50:03:06 - 00:50:04:21
We'd be socializing.

00:50:04:21 - 00:50:09:24
So that's kind of one of the terms
that we use in social analyses

00:50:09:24 - 00:50:12:19
is that we're analyzing
who's hanging out with who,

00:50:12:19 - 00:50:14:23
the strength of that relationship.

00:50:14:23 - 00:50:18:11
So for instance,
if Scott, you were hanging out

00:50:18:21 - 00:50:24:02
with, our host, Leigh Anne and you guys over
and over and over and over and over again,

00:50:24:02 - 00:50:28:05
that would be a strong association where,
Scott, you and I have never hung out.

00:50:28:21 - 00:50:31:21
That is, there's very little association
there.

00:50:31:27 - 00:50:34:06
I live in British Columbia.
You live in California.

00:50:34:06 - 00:50:35:05
There's there's lack,

00:50:35:05 - 00:50:36:10
There's not that much association.

00:50:36:10 - 00:50:38:02
We might be part of two different
populations.

00:50:38:02 - 00:50:40:08
I'm part of the Canadian population.
You you're part of the American.

00:50:42:02 - 00:50:43:08
But that doesn't

00:50:43:08 - 00:50:46:08
mean that they're that they're genetically
distinct populations.

00:50:46:12 - 00:50:49:12
What we're kind of going with
is that they're like these sub populations.

00:50:49:15 - 00:50:52:10
So genetically distinct population
being that

00:50:52:10 - 00:50:55:12
they never associate
they're genetically distinct.

00:50:55:29 - 00:51:00:20
They're they're either separated somehow
from say the Atlantic from the Pacific.

00:51:01:01 - 00:51:04:28
But a sub population,

00:51:04:28 - 00:51:09:06
is usually a term given to animals
that show differences in habitat behavior.

00:51:09:20 - 00:51:12:08
So they either don't spend a lot of time
together.

00:51:12:08 - 00:51:15:24
They're in different habitats
that can kind of be a sub population

00:51:15:24 - 00:51:18:29
or a distinct,
demographically distinct population.

00:51:19:14 - 00:51:22:27
Now, geospatial analyses...geospatial

00:51:22:27 - 00:51:25:02
just means location or habitat.

00:51:25:02 - 00:51:28:04
So what we're really looking at
is where animals are spending their time

00:51:28:04 - 00:51:30:12
and why
they're spending their time in that area.

00:51:30:12 - 00:51:32:10
So for instance,
are they're spending their time

00:51:32:10 - 00:51:36:06
off the continent or shelf break,
because that habitat is really unique.

00:51:36:06 - 00:51:37:22
It's got a lot of upwelling.

00:51:37:22 - 00:51:42:01
It's it's same with the coastal areas
where there's a lot of harbor seal,

00:51:42:02 - 00:51:43:14
a lot of habitat complexity.

00:51:43:14 - 00:51:45:12
It's a lot of haul out sites.

00:51:45:12 - 00:51:48:01
That would be kind of the analysis
we would run

00:51:48:01 - 00:51:50:26
would be that geospatial analysis
from looking at why those animals are in

00:51:50:26 - 00:51:55:17
that area based on those water depths
or the distance from the shore or whatnot.

00:51:56:01 - 00:51:57:20
Thank you for that clarification.

00:51:57:20 - 00:51:59:03
And if you're just tuning in, you're

00:51:59:03 - 00:52:02:12
listening to the voice of doctor
Josh McInnis.

00:52:02:18 - 00:52:07:12
He's with the Marine Mammal Research Unit
at the University of British Columbia.

00:52:07:24 - 00:52:11:10
He is also a research coordinator
at Marine Life

00:52:11:10 - 00:52:14:10
Studies in Monterey Bay, California.

00:52:14:13 - 00:52:18:07
And that's where he focuses on
studying toothed cetaceans.

00:52:18:17 - 00:52:20:14
So I've wanted to ask you about that.

00:52:20:14 - 00:52:22:02
And then I want to get back to Scott
and Tree

00:52:22:02 - 00:52:24:16
Mercer, of the Mendonoma Whale and Seal study

00:52:24:16 - 00:52:27:29
who helped found the sixth annual Ocean
Life Symposium.

00:52:28:06 - 00:52:33:09
That actually is the sixth version
of a symposium that they founded.

00:52:33:09 - 00:52:34:28
But what is that?

00:52:34:28 - 00:52:36:04
Toothed cetaceans.

00:52:36:04 - 00:52:38:23
What focus is do you have on that?

00:52:41:02 - 00:52:42:27
So I'm, other than killer whales,

00:52:42:27 - 00:52:45:14
I'm really interested,
in Risso’s dolphins,

00:52:45:14 - 00:52:49:03
which are another species of dolphin
off the central coast of California.

00:52:49:03 - 00:52:50:09
I think they're fascinating.

00:52:50:09 - 00:52:53:16
I, I am very fascinated by beaked whales.

00:52:53:25 - 00:52:54:26
Sperm whales.

00:52:54:26 - 00:52:57:20
So understanding similar

00:52:57:20 - 00:53:00:11
some of the things
like the social behavior of foraging,

00:53:00:11 - 00:53:03:22
is also very important for a lot of these
other species and Risso’s

00:53:03:23 - 00:53:07:15
Dolphins are kind of my my other species.

00:53:07:15 - 00:53:11:03
I would like to spend more time studying
and hopefully I will soon,

00:53:11:13 - 00:53:14:06
especially because killer whales take up.

00:53:14:06 - 00:53:17:20
It's taken up a big chunk of my life,
but I'd like to definitely dedicate

00:53:17:20 - 00:53:18:25
some time to these other species.

00:53:18:25 - 00:53:24:14
So that's the kind of where I look at toothed cetaceans 
being a species of dolphin

00:53:24:14 - 00:53:27:22
or whale that have teeth
and not baleen whales or humpbacks.

00:53:28:08 - 00:53:28:24
Thank you.

00:53:28:24 - 00:53:32:15
And Scott and Tree, want to have you

00:53:32:16 - 00:53:36:04
comment here, but I do want to first
let our listeners know.

00:53:36:04 - 00:53:42:29
Also coming up, we have on this many hours of this symposium,

00:53:42:29 - 00:53:47:09
we got several more hours ago,
but just coming up next is Howie Garrett,

00:53:47:20 - 00:53:51:06
and he's the president of the board
of directors for the Orca Network

00:53:51:06 - 00:53:52:27
up in Washington state.

00:53:52:27 - 00:53:55:27
And then after that, we're going
to make our way down the coast,

00:53:55:28 - 00:53:57:11
and we'll be talking with

00:53:57:11 - 00:54:00:27
Richard Charter, who's a senior
fellow of the Ocean Foundation.

00:54:01:07 - 00:54:04:17
He's, works out of Washington, DC,
but he lives in

00:54:04:17 - 00:54:07:17
Bodega Bay down here on the Sonoma Coast.

00:54:07:29 - 00:54:12:28
And then we have Michael Stocker in Marin
at the Ocean Conservation Research.

00:54:13:07 - 00:54:18:03
And then in Minneapolis, we've got young
Ian Bashear of the Ian for Ocean Foundation.

00:54:18:11 - 00:54:21:11
So that's coming up on the Ocean
Life Symposium.

00:54:21:20 - 00:54:25:04
And this is KGUA in Gualala 88.3 FM.

00:54:25:04 - 00:54:29:23
And now back to you, Scott & Tree Mercer
of the Mendonoma Whale and Seal Study.

00:54:30:10 - 00:54:30:16
Yeah.

00:54:30:16 - 00:54:33:16
Josh, excuse me,
I should have mentioned that,

00:54:33:20 - 00:54:36:09
we've never seen orcas.

00:54:36:09 - 00:54:40:06
And when mothers and calves are going by
at the same time, and that's just timing.

00:54:40:06 - 00:54:42:20
But, I didn't mention that when they

00:54:43:23 - 00:54:46:00
we have, we've only seen orcas in the area

00:54:46:00 - 00:54:52:00
when, at the same time that we have,
adult grays going by at the same time.

00:54:52:00 - 00:54:55:00
So I don't know if that would make
a difference in the excitement of

00:54:55:00 - 00:54:59:12
the Orcas or if they're already filled up on pinnipeds.

00:54:59:12 - 00:55:02:12
You really open my eyes with that graph
you had with,

00:55:02:18 - 00:55:04:21
you know, harbor purposes. That’s ...

00:55:04:21 - 00:55:07:27
I mean, harbor seals, you know,
tough time to be a seal.

00:55:08:10 - 00:55:11:18
And, 
I was surprised at how many, porpoises

00:55:11:18 - 00:55:13:20
It seems that they get.

00:55:13:20 - 00:55:17:21
So. Yeah, it's very
I think, with your area.

00:55:17:21 - 00:55:18:25
So a lot of people go, well,

00:55:18:25 - 00:55:22:13
why aren't we seeing killer whales close
to shore anywhere other than Monterey?

00:55:22:21 - 00:55:26:03
And, you know, I get a lot of people
living up and down the California coast.

00:55:26:05 - 00:55:27:29
And the big question,

00:55:27:29 - 00:55:30:26
I think, is that they're out there,
but they're too far to see,

00:55:30:26 - 00:55:35:11
as you head north,
that shelf break, as I mentioned, widens.

00:55:36:12 - 00:55:38:11
And it's likely that

00:55:38:11 - 00:55:38:18
at least

00:55:38:18 - 00:55:42:02
the outer coast group that we see,
primarily Monterey and that and elsewhere,

00:55:42:03 - 00:55:46:04
are being seen or encountered at least
further offshore that shelf break area,

00:55:46:16 - 00:55:47:24
making it difficult.

00:55:47:24 - 00:55:52:22
Less are out there, to find them
and where the animals you might be seeing

00:55:52:22 - 00:55:56:03
where you are could be either,
you know, southern residents coming south.

00:55:56:03 - 00:55:57:15
So that's also one option.

00:55:57:15 - 00:56:01:08
But also, could be inner coast
transients,

00:56:01:12 - 00:56:03:09
that also make their way down.

00:56:03:09 - 00:56:06:01
We know we do have reports of some inner coast groups.

00:56:06:01 - 00:56:10:16
We've identified 63 different inner coast
whales at least as far south as Monterey.

00:56:10:16 - 00:56:13:16
So it could be some of those animals too.

00:56:13:26 - 00:56:16:04
Okay, we've upgraded our camera equipment.

00:56:16:04 - 00:56:19:08
So hopefully we can contribute
some to you as well.

00:56:20:06 - 00:56:21:07
I'll appreciate. It.

00:56:21:07 - 00:56:22:26
Yeah, yeah, we see so few of them.

00:56:22:26 - 00:56:25:13
But, you know, we'll be ready.

00:56:25:13 - 00:56:28:13
By upgrading, I mean a stronger lens.

00:56:28:13 - 00:56:30:16
You mentioned Risso’s (dolphins)

00:56:30:16 - 00:56:31:23
We do see a lot up here.

00:56:31:23 - 00:56:35:02
Kind of seasonally, but when we have them,
we have them around. And,

00:56:36:10 - 00:56:36:27
Leilani.

00:56:36:27 - 00:56:39:10
Stelle. Dr. Lei Lani Stelle.

00:56:39:10 - 00:56:43:22
I figured you were familiar with her
at the University of Redlands.

00:56:43:28 - 00:56:47:19
She's been running a project
with students for a number of years,

00:56:48:20 - 00:56:50:22
so I didn't know if you knew that
or aware of that.

00:56:50:22 - 00:56:52:19
If I could help you at all with their.

00:56:52:19 - 00:56:55:13
They're doing identification with that.

00:56:55:13 - 00:56:57:01
Yeah. Lei’s, she's amazing.

00:56:57:01 - 00:56:58:05
With her.

00:56:58:05 - 00:56:59:22
I've had some really good conversations,
actually.

00:56:59:22 - 00:57:02:22
She came out with me one time when we were
looking at Risso's in Monterey.

00:57:03:05 - 00:57:06:28
And we we, you know, they're
the Risso’s were not, you know,

00:57:08:03 - 00:57:11:11
there's not when it comes to photo
identification, it's a bit daunting.

00:57:11:20 - 00:57:15:18
There's there's a lot of Risso’s.
but we are cataloging Mostly Monterey

00:57:15:18 - 00:57:16:17
and a bit further north.

00:57:16:17 - 00:57:19:08
And there appears
to be a bit of a difference,

00:57:19:08 - 00:57:20:05
at least in the animals

00:57:20:05 - 00:57:23:05
that are seeing further south
in her region in Southern California.

00:57:23:06 - 00:57:26:08
So we have talked about comparing
actually with just the the cool.

00:57:26:08 - 00:57:28:18
I'm I hope we can see her
and I can sit down.

00:57:28:18 - 00:57:29:28
We didn't talk about that.

00:57:29:28 - 00:57:33:19
The reason why we haven't yet
is because I've been swamped

00:57:33:19 - 00:57:34:11
with killer whale stuff.

00:57:34:11 - 00:57:36:22
I just
there's been no time to even get to it.

00:57:36:22 - 00:57:39:23
But, you know, I've got a list of...

00:57:39:23 - 00:57:43:10
I've got a hard drive
full of dolphin photos that I need to go through...

00:57:43:10 - 00:57:46:16
but, So, yeah, I'd love to sit down with her (Lei Lani Stelle.)

00:57:47:21 - 00:57:49:13
Wonderful.

00:57:49:13 - 00:57:49:29
Yeah, go ahead.

00:57:49:29 - 00:57:54:00
Okay, well, I encourage you to do those
those Risso’s.

00:57:54:00 - 00:57:56:20
They're just the most fascinating animals.

00:57:56:20 - 00:57:59:18
And, what we one day watch them, Josh,

00:57:59:18 - 00:58:02:23
They came from the north,
and they passed us going south.

00:58:03:02 - 00:58:06:04
Several hours later,
they started to come back again.

00:58:06:13 - 00:58:09:16
We were still out there
searching for for gray whales, and we got.

00:58:09:16 - 00:58:12:16
So we got to see them going in
both directions.

00:58:13:08 - 00:58:14:10
Oh, that's so cool.

00:58:14:10 - 00:58:17:29
We know a lot of people think
that they are primarily nocturnal hunters

00:58:17:29 - 00:58:19:09
with these squid.

00:58:19:09 - 00:58:22:11
But we we found interesting behavior
where they

00:58:23:00 - 00:58:25:27
in the middle of the day,
we've seen it multiple times where they,

00:58:25:27 - 00:58:28:14
they do this high speed swimming,

00:58:28:14 - 00:58:32:22
along this along the shelf
break in Monterey and they chase squid.

00:58:33:00 - 00:58:36:01
And what we found is
that we were following them from behind,

00:58:36:01 - 00:58:38:15
and there was squid ink
being picked up in their wake.

00:58:38:15 - 00:58:42:24
So we were picking up this little tiny opalescent
or market squid.

00:58:43:07 - 00:58:46:09
And we were like, wow,
they're definitely feeding on something.

00:58:46:11 - 00:58:49:11
You know, another colleague of mine
was he's a tuna fisherman,

00:58:49:12 - 00:58:50:18
and he was working offshore.

00:58:50:18 - 00:58:52:06
And you said he was with some Risso’s

00:58:52:06 - 00:58:55:13
And, these Risso’s were feeding
on another kind of squid.

00:58:55:13 - 00:58:57:08
And he collected the squid for us.

00:58:57:08 - 00:59:00:08
And, we're not sure what it is yet.

00:59:00:19 - 00:59:03:28
Like, once again,
it's in a jar sitting at my office.

00:59:04:17 - 00:59:08:16
But, we'll hopefully know a
little bit more about what those were too.

00:59:09:03 - 00:59:11:29
Well, thank you so much,
Josh, for joining us today.

00:59:11:29 - 00:59:13:09
That's Josh McInnis.

00:59:13:09 - 00:59:18:02
He's with the Marine Mammal Research Unit
at the British Columbia University.

00:59:18:11 - 00:59:21:06
And he's also a research coordinator
at the Marine

00:59:21:06 - 00:59:24:06
Life Studies in Monterey,
Monterey Bay, California.

00:59:24:16 - 00:59:26:21
And we are at the 10:00 hour.

00:59:26:21 - 00:59:32:00
We are going to continue on this
special day of the Ocean Life Symposium.

00:59:32:06 - 00:59:37:05
This is the sixth year that the Mendonoma
Whale and Seal Study, Scott and Tree

00:59:37:06 - 00:59:41:17
Mercer have been doing this
five years with me I'm Leigh Anne Lindsey

00:59:51:15 - 00:59:54:04
Thanks for
listening to the Resilient Earth podcast,

00:59:54:04 - 00:59:59:14
where we talk about critical issues
and positive actions for our planet.

01:00:00:19 - 01:00:04:04
Resilient Earth is produced by Planet Centric Media,

01:00:04:18 - 01:00:09:13
a 501 C3 nonprofit, and Sea Storm Studios, Inc.,

01:00:09:24 - 01:00:12:16
located on the rugged North Sonoma

01:00:12:16 - 01:00:15:16
coast of Northern California.

01:00:16:00 - 01:00:20:28
I'm Leigh Anne Lindsey, producer and host,
along with co-hosts and co-producers

01:00:21:04 - 01:00:25:10
Scott and Tree Mercer of The Mendonoma Whale and Seal Study.

01:00:25:10 - 01:00:28:10
Located on the South Mendocino

01:00:28:10 - 01:00:31:10
and North Sonoma coast.

01:00:33:04 - 01:00:36:05
The music for this podcast
is by Eric Allaman,

01:00:36:05 - 01:00:41:07
an international composer,
pianist and writer living in The Sea Ranch.

01:00:41:07 - 01:00:46:09
Discover more of his music, animations, ballet,

01:00:46:21 - 01:00:50:13
stage and film work at EricAllaman.com.

01:00:50:13 - 01:00:52:16
(music close)

01:00:52:16 - 01:00:54:07
You can find Resilient Earth

01:00:54:07 - 01:00:57:25
on Spotify, Apple and Amazon podcasts,

01:00:58:05 - 01:01:01:06
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01:01:01:15 - 01:01:04:13
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01:01:04:13 - 01:01:08:06
Please support us
by subscribing or donating to our cause.

01:15:10:02 - 01:15:11:19
Music Ends

01:15:11:19 - 01:15:15:06
recent guest on our podcast,

01:15:15:17 - 01:15:19:13
and you can find that on
almost any podcast platform.

01:15:19:24 - 01:15:23:02
Joining us now on Ocean Life, simply

01:15:23:14 - 01:15:26:19
on the Ocean
Life Symposium is Howie Garrett.

01:15:26:19 - 01:15:29:21
He's the president of the board
of directors for Orca Network,

01:15:30:04 - 01:15:34:14
and their goal is to connect people with
whales of the Pacific Northwest first.

01:15:34:27 - 01:15:38:17
And the Orca Network's
Whale Sighting and Education

01:15:38:17 - 01:15:42:21
project encourages
observation to increase awareness

01:15:42:27 - 01:15:47:28
and knowledge about the southern resident
community of orcas J, K and L pods,

01:15:48:09 - 01:15:51:19
big transient orcas,
and also other cetaceans.

01:15:51:26 - 01:15:55:25
And to foster a stewardship ethic
to motivate a diverse

01:15:55:25 - 01:16:00:07
audience to take action to protect
and restore their critical habitat.

01:16:00:22 - 01:16:04:04
He began working as a field researcher
with the center for Whale Research

01:16:04:04 - 01:16:09:16
on San Juan Island in 1981, and in 2001
he and his wife, Susan Berta,

01:16:09:25 - 01:16:14:23
founded Orca Network, a nonprofit
organization based on Whidbey Island

01:16:14:23 - 01:16:18:06
dedicated to raising awareness
of the whales, the Pacific Northwest,

01:16:18:16 - 01:16:23:00
and the importance of providing them
healthy and safe habitats,

01:16:23:09 - 01:16:27:24
and their projects include whale sighting
network, educational programs,

01:16:28:01 - 01:16:31:04
presentations, events, advocacy.

01:16:31:13 - 01:16:34:13
Langley Whale Center, Central Puget Sound

01:16:34:13 - 01:16:37:14
Marine Mammal Stranding Network,
and so much more.

01:16:37:23 - 01:16:40:13
Welcome back,
Howie. Good to have you with us.

01:16:41:15 - 01:16:42:06
Thank you.

01:16:42:06 - 01:16:44:29
And good
morning, Liane and Scott and Craig.

01:16:44:29 - 01:16:46:12
Good to see you.

01:16:46:12 - 01:16:48:17
Good to see you, Kelly.

01:16:48:17 - 01:16:49:10
Yeah.

01:16:49:10 - 01:16:52:04
And we're going to now
turn everything over to you

01:16:52:04 - 01:16:55:04
and give you the next 50 minutes
of presentation.

01:16:55:20 - 01:16:56:19
Well, okay.

01:16:56:19 - 01:16:57:07
Thank you.

01:16:57:07 - 01:17:00:28
I will introduce the concept

01:17:00:28 - 01:17:03:28
of orca sociology,

01:17:04:04 - 01:17:06:17
which nobody has ever heard of.

01:17:06:17 - 01:17:11:04
And, so don't be surprised
if you haven't heard of it,

01:17:11:27 - 01:17:17:05
but I'd like to start out
with, a very intriguing incident,

01:17:17:05 - 01:17:21:18
and I'm going to share a screen and go to,

01:17:22:13 - 01:17:26:05
let's see.

01:17:27:06 - 01:17:32:10
I don't see the, I'm still here.

01:17:32:12 - 01:17:33:07
Okay.

01:17:33:07 - 01:17:33:25
Yeah.

01:17:33:25 - 01:17:38:15
None of the lower bottom
of the zoom screen and then hover over

01:17:38:15 - 01:17:40:13
till it says share.

01:17:40:13 - 01:17:43:09
And it is allowed
for multiple participants to share.

01:17:43:09 - 01:17:46:09
There you go. You got it. Okay.

01:17:46:16 - 01:17:49:18
But I'm looking for.

01:17:51:08 - 01:17:57:10
The. The page that I want to share,
which is.

01:17:57:25 - 01:18:02:25
Will close your browser there unless your,
your presentation there it is.

01:18:02:25 - 01:18:05:18
There's your browser.
I mean, there's your presentation.

01:18:05:18 - 01:18:08:07
You've got there.
There's the presentation.

01:18:08:07 - 01:18:11:07
Close your browser up in the right hand
corner there.

01:18:11:10 - 01:18:13:22
Well, but the thing is, what I want to do

01:18:13:22 - 01:18:16:22
first is, Oh.

01:18:17:03 - 01:18:18:07
You see that?

01:18:18:07 - 01:18:20:07
Okay, that's where I wanted to start.

01:18:20:07 - 01:18:22:11
And then I'll go to the presentation.

01:18:22:11 - 01:18:24:22
Sounds good.

01:18:24:22 - 01:18:27:21
This is from October 1st.

01:18:27:21 - 01:18:30:11
This is a center for Whale
Research encounter report.

01:18:30:11 - 01:18:33:11
And if you haven't encountered
their encounter reports,

01:18:33:16 - 01:18:35:10
they're really fascinating.

01:18:35:10 - 01:18:38:04
Some of the best photos
you'll see anywhere.

01:18:38:04 - 01:18:41:01
Really intriguing photos.

01:18:41:01 - 01:18:44:06
And this was, an encounter

01:18:44:06 - 01:18:47:06
like, like never before.

01:18:48:05 - 01:18:49:18
This was when,

01:18:49:18 - 01:18:52:19
Mark and Alison was, way out

01:18:52:19 - 01:18:55:19
on the west side of the Strait of Juan
de Fuca.

01:18:55:27 - 01:18:59:19
Actually
on the western edge of Swift Shore Bank.

01:19:00:10 - 01:19:03:10
Basically out into the Pacific Ocean.

01:19:04:06 - 01:19:06:25
And, he was looking for alpine

01:19:06:25 - 01:19:10:03
and especially for little El 128,

01:19:10:23 - 01:19:15:28
which was a calf
that was born probably September 14th

01:19:15:28 - 01:19:21:17
or 15th and was first seen on September
15th with mom, ill.

01:19:21:17 - 01:19:24:07
90, and looking good.

01:19:24:07 - 01:19:27:14
But it was a kind of bizarre,

01:19:27:28 - 01:19:31:11
set of encounters
over the next three days

01:19:31:11 - 01:19:35:10
because it was just El 90,

01:19:35:10 - 01:19:39:20
who was, first time mom,
although 31 years old.

01:19:39:20 - 01:19:45:27
And so, very old to be a first time
mom, probably had had some miscarriages

01:19:45:27 - 01:19:52:06
or some, babies that, didn't make it
and were never documented for that.

01:19:54:07 - 01:19:55:15
But, looked

01:19:55:15 - 01:19:59:24
okay along, San Juan Island,
just the two of them,

01:19:59:24 - 01:20:03:25
the mom and the calf, you know, up
and down the island for several days.

01:20:03:25 - 01:20:04:22
Very unusual.

01:20:04:22 - 01:20:08:17
Without any other El Pod members
anywhere nearby.

01:20:09:09 - 01:20:13:12
So, it's important to document the calf.

01:20:14:05 - 01:20:17:23
And so he, on a flat Beaufort,

01:20:17:23 - 01:20:21:23
zero day went all the way out
to the west side of Swift, your bank.

01:20:22:09 - 01:20:23:12
And he did find them.

01:20:23:12 - 01:20:26:19
So I want to read this because,

01:20:26:19 - 01:20:30:14
this is just objective documentation of,

01:20:30:15 - 01:20:34:11
what happened,
the behavior of the whales.

01:20:35:09 - 01:20:38:19
So, initially, Mark assumed

01:20:38:19 - 01:20:41:19
it was the old 90 with the old 148.

01:20:41:29 - 01:20:45:01
But upon closer examination of his photos,

01:20:45:01 - 01:20:48:01
he realized it was el 83

01:20:48:13 - 01:20:50:20
with a small, emaciated calf.

01:20:50:20 - 01:20:55:11
Ladd, three, is another female,
not directly related, not a sister,

01:20:55:11 - 01:20:58:13
not in the same macro line with El 90,

01:20:58:13 - 01:21:01:29
who is the last survivor of her line,

01:21:02:19 - 01:21:05:22
but another female about two years older.

01:21:06:19 - 01:21:09:17
So about 33, 34.

01:21:09:17 - 01:21:11:28
And he realized

01:21:11:28 - 01:21:16:09
it was El 83 with a small, emaciated calf.

01:21:17:11 - 01:21:18:12
Just a couple

01:21:18:12 - 01:21:23:03
of weeks earlier,
its staff had photographed El 90s newborn

01:21:23:18 - 01:21:26:14
off the west side of San Juan Island.

01:21:26:14 - 01:21:29:14
But this calf looked far from healthy.

01:21:29:27 - 01:21:33:04
Rather,
the calf appeared lumpy and skinny.

01:21:34:16 - 01:21:37:09
Mark quickly sent pictures of the capture

01:21:37:09 - 01:21:41:19
right eye patch to Dave and Michael,
and they eventually confirmed

01:21:41:19 - 01:21:47:10
the troubling reality that, yes,
this was indeed the emaciated El.

01:21:47:10 - 01:21:51:25
128 just born like three weeks earlier.

01:21:52:25 - 01:21:57:16
El 90 was nearby,
foraging as El 83 approached.

01:21:57:20 - 01:22:02:00
Mike one that's the name of the boat
with the emaciated calf

01:22:02:10 - 01:22:05:06
draped across her rostrum

01:22:05:06 - 01:22:08:16
as she carried the calf down
the side of the boat,

01:22:09:25 - 01:22:11:22
its heart sank.

01:22:11:22 - 01:22:15:05
He was certain
the calf had stopped breathing.

01:22:16:13 - 01:22:19:01
El 83 jiggled the cap

01:22:19:01 - 01:22:23:18
as if to desperately,
desperately trying to revive it.

01:22:24:17 - 01:22:26:15
As she continued past the

01:22:26:15 - 01:22:31:22
stern of Mike one, Mark
thought he saw the calf

01:22:31:22 - 01:22:35:20
take a faint breath
and returned to her side,

01:22:36:25 - 01:22:39:25
emotionally drained from the sighting,

01:22:40:06 - 01:22:43:04
Mark decided at 1323

01:22:43:04 - 01:22:48:00
it was time to end the encounter
and make the 60 nautical

01:22:48:14 - 01:22:51:14
mile journey back to Victoria Harbor.

01:22:52:04 - 01:22:56:14
And I want to mention that Mark was

01:22:56:14 - 01:22:59:26
who found J35 Tahlequah

01:23:00:20 - 01:23:03:08
when she had her calf

01:23:03:08 - 01:23:07:16
and died
within a half hour of birth in 2018.

01:23:07:16 - 01:23:11:29
He saw that calf basically die
before he died.

01:23:12:25 - 01:23:15:07
And now here's another calf

01:23:15:07 - 01:23:18:07
that was brought to him.

01:23:18:10 - 01:23:20:05
So that's what I want to point out.

01:23:20:05 - 01:23:23:05
What is going on here.

01:23:23:06 - 01:23:25:08
Lady three not the mother.

01:23:25:08 - 01:23:31:04
Another female carries
this calf over to Mark.

01:23:31:24 - 01:23:34:13
I mean, that wasn't a random calf

01:23:34:13 - 01:23:38:19
that was directly to
Mark in his little open boat

01:23:40:08 - 01:23:41:16
right alongside the

01:23:41:16 - 01:23:44:16
boat and around to the stern of the boat.

01:23:45:16 - 01:23:48:16
So what was going on there?

01:23:48:25 - 01:23:51:04
What I'm going to try to present to you

01:23:51:04 - 01:23:54:26
is the idea that lady three

01:23:55:11 - 01:23:58:01
was trying to say something,

01:23:58:01 - 01:24:01:01
that there was a message in that,

01:24:01:18 - 01:24:04:23
and that is based on my understanding

01:24:05:13 - 01:24:08:13
of orca sociology.

01:24:09:28 - 01:24:11:09
So what is that?

01:24:11:09 - 01:24:12:11
Where did that come from?

01:24:12:11 - 01:24:14:03
And am I just trying to be a smartass?

01:24:14:03 - 01:24:16:01
Did I come up with something?

01:24:16:01 - 01:24:18:19
You know, that sounds, very intellectual,

01:24:18:19 - 01:24:21:22
but, has no actual basis.

01:24:21:23 - 01:24:26:22
Well, we try to describe this
because I really came upon it honestly.

01:24:27:14 - 01:24:31:12
And it goes back to 1963,

01:24:32:22 - 01:24:34:19
when I graduated high school

01:24:34:19 - 01:24:37:19
and enrolled at University of New Mexico.

01:24:38:06 - 01:24:41:18
And, I had no idea what I was going to do
there.

01:24:41:18 - 01:24:43:28
I didn't really have a major in mind.

01:24:43:28 - 01:24:48:06
I didn't know,
what I wanted to be in life.

01:24:48:09 - 01:24:51:04
I didn't know how to be an adult, really.

01:24:51:04 - 01:24:53:13
So I would just take in courses.

01:24:53:13 - 01:24:56:13
And one was a social logic course.

01:24:56:23 - 01:25:00:03
And, when it came time for the final,

01:25:00:27 - 01:25:05:10
I passed in my, my final exam and,

01:25:06:16 - 01:25:08:25
the after the grading,

01:25:08:25 - 01:25:14:11
the professor came up to me
in this 400 seat lecture hall

01:25:15:01 - 01:25:18:01
and told me
that I had gotten the best score

01:25:18:14 - 01:25:21:14
in the class for anybody.

01:25:21:18 - 01:25:25:04
Which blew me away
because I was never an ace student.

01:25:25:04 - 01:25:28:04
I have to admit,
I wasn't all that highly motivated.

01:25:29:03 - 01:25:32:20
So that set my course right then.

01:25:32:20 - 01:25:35:15
Okay, I am going to study sociology.

01:25:35:15 - 01:25:39:07
I'm going to major in sociology
because I can pass the courses.

01:25:39:29 - 01:25:44:17
I can I can get through college
if I major into geology.

01:25:45:12 - 01:25:48:12
So I did that, and two years later,

01:25:49:12 - 01:25:51:26
I got an invitation from,

01:25:51:26 - 01:25:55:09
our other brother, Rick, in Berkeley,

01:25:56:02 - 01:26:00:16
where he and Ken, my older brother,
Ken Balcomb,

01:26:01:03 - 01:26:04:13
had an apartment, saying,
why don't you come on out?

01:26:05:06 - 01:26:07:29
And that was 1965, which,

01:26:07:29 - 01:26:11:18
you may recall, was the age of the,

01:26:11:23 - 01:26:16:07
free speech movement
and all of the hubbub.

01:26:16:07 - 01:26:19:17
But, Berkeley
and I was kind of interested in that.

01:26:20:10 - 01:26:23:10
So, it was a good move.

01:26:23:14 - 01:26:26:22
I moved to Berkeley
and enrolled at UC Berkeley and

01:26:27:25 - 01:26:30:08
my first class

01:26:30:08 - 01:26:33:17
was with, a man named Herbert Bloomer

01:26:34:10 - 01:26:37:04
who wrote the book literally

01:26:37:04 - 01:26:39:16
called Symbolic Interaction.

01:26:39:16 - 01:26:46:09
Is, which is a subdiscipline of sociology
that was founded,

01:26:46:09 - 01:26:51:12
at the University of Chicago
in the 1920s.

01:26:52:06 - 01:26:59:04
And, it was kind of an offshoot
of sociology because it was sociology.

01:26:59:04 - 01:27:03:14
His answer to Charles Darwin's
Origin of Species,

01:27:04:09 - 01:27:06:25
because previously

01:27:06:25 - 01:27:10:22
sociology studied the structure
and the functions of society.

01:27:11:18 - 01:27:15:08
But Charles Darwin
sort of put the science on the spot

01:27:15:08 - 01:27:19:29
and said, well, you know,
how did it evolve out of nature?

01:27:19:29 - 01:27:24:18
How did the humans societies come to be
and how do they,

01:27:25:04 - 01:27:28:04
perpetuate themselves and maintain and,

01:27:28:13 - 01:27:33:07
and, to continue, to build

01:27:33:07 - 01:27:36:26
institutions and traditions
and everything we think of as society,

01:27:37:11 - 01:27:42:14
out of nature, out of our ancestors,
our primate ancestors.

01:27:42:15 - 01:27:43:13
How did that happen?

01:27:44:22 - 01:27:47:01
And so this theory

01:27:47:01 - 01:27:50:10
is, called symbolic interactionism.

01:27:51:02 - 01:27:57:20
And I was fascinated by it
because what it helped

01:27:57:20 - 01:28:03:02
explain to me is how the world works,
which was such a huge mystery to me.

01:28:03:02 - 01:28:06:05
I did not know,

01:28:06:05 - 01:28:09:05
how how, how to live in the world,
how to be how to adult,

01:28:09:21 - 01:28:14:08
how to how to manage, how to get jobs,
how to build relationships,

01:28:14:08 - 01:28:18:20
how to how to, succeed in life.

01:28:18:20 - 01:28:22:02
And so I hope
that this would give me some answers.

01:28:22:26 - 01:28:25:26
And I think it sort of did.

01:28:25:27 - 01:28:30:07
So I was just absolutely engrossed.

01:28:31:11 - 01:28:33:28
And I didn't actually

01:28:33:28 - 01:28:36:28
get my degree until 1980.

01:28:37:24 - 01:28:43:14
I, traveled I went on my own sabbatical.

01:28:43:14 - 01:28:45:10
You could put it that way.

01:28:45:10 - 01:28:49:17
Took some time off
and, dropped back into college

01:28:49:28 - 01:28:53:01
when I was in Colorado
Springs at Colorado College,

01:28:54:01 - 01:28:56:01
which is kind of, the

01:28:56:01 - 01:29:01:27
Ivy League of the Rockies, you know,
kind of private liberal university,

01:29:02:16 - 01:29:05:28
which had, seminar type classes,

01:29:06:19 - 01:29:11:10
which,
you know, very small 15, 20 students.

01:29:11:27 - 01:29:15:27
So a lot of time
to dwell into a particular field.

01:29:16:16 - 01:29:20:11
And, of course,
I dwelled into symbolic interactionism

01:29:21:00 - 01:29:24:00
as sort of the way

01:29:24:00 - 01:29:26:08
that, that humans

01:29:26:08 - 01:29:31:14
interact, using language, of course,
but anything else

01:29:31:14 - 01:29:34:14
that is meaningful, meaningful gestures,

01:29:35:06 - 01:29:37:22
you know, anything from,

01:29:37:22 - 01:29:41:01
you know, how you tell me your hair,
how you clothes you wear.

01:29:41:01 - 01:29:45:16
Everything is symbolic and meaningful
in some way or another.

01:29:45:16 - 01:29:49:28
And it's all about interacting
and building,

01:29:51:27 - 01:29:53:12
institutions.

01:29:53:12 - 01:29:57:24
And the whole structure of society evolves
out of that.

01:29:57:24 - 01:30:00:24
But it's a particular,

01:30:02:07 - 01:30:05:02
capacity that has to happen.

01:30:06:06 - 01:30:08:02
And so I

01:30:08:02 - 01:30:11:02
was just totally fascinated by that.

01:30:11:15 - 01:30:15:02
And that year, not long after I graduated,

01:30:15:10 - 01:30:18:10
Ken Malcolm, my brother,

01:30:18:16 - 01:30:21:25
came, to Denver.

01:30:22:02 - 01:30:27:15
He was he had been studying
humpbacks, doing, you know, photo I.D.

01:30:27:17 - 01:30:30:27
studies with humpbacks in the Caribbean
and off Greenland.

01:30:31:25 - 01:30:35:13
And he, came through

01:30:35:14 - 01:30:40:13
Denver, so, and stopped off
his plane, had a stopover.

01:30:40:13 - 01:30:44:28
So we had lunch, and he said,
why don't you come out to Friday Harbor?

01:30:45:16 - 01:30:50:14
Because he had started
orca Survey in 1976.

01:30:50:29 - 01:30:54:04
So he was four years into the study
at that point

01:30:54:27 - 01:30:57:27
and, needed some administrative help.

01:30:58:19 - 01:31:01:19
And, he asked me to volunteer.

01:31:02:24 - 01:31:06:24
He could, find me a place to sleep
and, feed me meals.

01:31:06:24 - 01:31:10:26
And, so I figured, well,
that's the best offer I've gotten so far.

01:31:10:26 - 01:31:12:07
So I'll take it.

01:31:12:07 - 01:31:17:12
So we'll go up to Friday
Harbor and, study whales with him.

01:31:17:20 - 01:31:22:20
And I really didn't have any background
in whales up to then.

01:31:22:29 - 01:31:27:09
I had visited in
and I had seen orcas or that, but,

01:31:27:20 - 01:31:32:26
I really I didn't have any particular
interest or knowledge about them at all.

01:31:34:04 - 01:31:35:15
So I was just this

01:31:35:15 - 01:31:38:26
sort of blank slate
as far as whale studies,

01:31:39:11 - 01:31:42:12
but filled with these sociological

01:31:42:13 - 01:31:46:18
theories and concepts and,
and this way of, of seeing

01:31:46:18 - 01:31:50:08
that I had what they called
the sociological imagination.

01:31:53:00 - 01:31:56:10
So, of course that was useless out there.

01:31:56:10 - 01:31:59:12
And my job was,

01:31:59:26 - 01:32:05:01
just to, go out in the boats
and take photographs

01:32:05:01 - 01:32:09:01
with the long lens and get the photo
ID just for the catalogs.

01:32:09:01 - 01:32:14:22
And that contributes to the demographic
studies and builds the whole population

01:32:14:22 - 01:32:20:03
structure analysis and,
so that was fascinating.

01:32:20:03 - 01:32:21:14
But that was 19.

01:32:21:14 - 01:32:24:14
My birth season was 1981,

01:32:24:29 - 01:32:28:29
and I was there for three years
and then went to New England.

01:32:29:28 - 01:32:34:09
But in those three years,
those were very,

01:32:34:14 - 01:32:37:28
very energetic, very fertile years

01:32:37:28 - 01:32:42:01
for knowledge, for understanding orcas.

01:32:42:16 - 01:32:45:03
Because the field studies begun by Mike

01:32:45:03 - 01:32:48:16
big and in 1972 73,

01:32:48:29 - 01:32:51:22
who founded pioneered the whole photo

01:32:51:22 - 01:32:56:23
identification method
that has proven absolutely invaluable for

01:32:57:11 - 01:33:02:00
not just whale studies,
but every animal, every species on

01:33:02:00 - 01:33:05:23
the planet can be studied
like photo identification.

01:33:05:23 - 01:33:08:25
But he he pioneered it and it became

01:33:08:25 - 01:33:13:27
very, enlightening,
just incredibly useful

01:33:13:27 - 01:33:17:25
for seeing the demographics,

01:33:18:19 - 01:33:22:22
the community structure,
the natural lines,

01:33:23:18 - 01:33:28:05
and several absolutely astounding
findings

01:33:28:18 - 01:33:31:10
were just coming into focus

01:33:31:10 - 01:33:34:27
in the early 1980s, 80, 81, 82,

01:33:36:11 - 01:33:39:19
such as, that the offspring

01:33:39:19 - 01:33:43:21
never leave their mothers side
in southern residents.

01:33:44:01 - 01:33:46:08
Of course, in other communities.

01:33:46:08 - 01:33:49:08
Now, we know that there are exceptions
to that rule.

01:33:49:27 - 01:33:53:19
But for southern residents,
the male and female offspring

01:33:54:01 - 01:33:59:13
grew up, became adults
and, stayed very close to their mothers.

01:33:59:21 - 01:34:02:23
And so that was fascinating

01:34:02:23 - 01:34:05:23
because that was unheard of.

01:34:06:12 - 01:34:08:24
And John Ford was had

01:34:08:24 - 01:34:13:06
just published his studies
on what he called dialects,

01:34:14:10 - 01:34:17:28
which was that there were variations
between the different pods

01:34:18:19 - 01:34:22:19
so that some pods have particular
signature

01:34:23:01 - 01:34:25:23
whistles that they use a lot.

01:34:25:23 - 01:34:28:23
And so you can ID the pod

01:34:29:05 - 01:34:33:09
by the acoustics, which was fascinating.

01:34:33:09 - 01:34:38:13
But he also determined
that the different communities

01:34:39:06 - 01:34:41:27
as the northern and the southern resident

01:34:41:27 - 01:34:45:04
communities, which are very similar in,

01:34:46:07 - 01:34:47:19
in many ways in

01:34:47:19 - 01:34:53:10
their diets and everything else
about them, but are completely distinct

01:34:53:10 - 01:34:58:03
and separate and do not interact
and have completely different

01:34:59:23 - 01:35:03:12
vocal vocabularies that their acoustic,

01:35:04:04 - 01:35:06:25
communications,

01:35:06:25 - 01:35:09:25
sound completely different.

01:35:11:09 - 01:35:14:09
And in the early 80s,

01:35:14:28 - 01:35:17:20
the first realizations began

01:35:17:20 - 01:35:22:20
to dawn on the researchers
that there were two completely

01:35:22:20 - 01:35:26:05
distinct populations in the same habitat.

01:35:26:21 - 01:35:29:19
In Patrick, populations

01:35:29:19 - 01:35:32:25
of orcas
that had nothing to do with each other,

01:35:33:22 - 01:35:36:23
residents and transients,
as they were called.

01:35:38:24 - 01:35:40:24
At first, for the first several years

01:35:40:24 - 01:35:44:26
they thought, well, to the one
to the transients that they encountered

01:35:45:18 - 01:35:48:23
must have been kicked
out, must have been rogue whales

01:35:50:02 - 01:35:53:02
that, were not,

01:35:53:21 - 01:35:55:12
somehow accepted.

01:35:55:12 - 01:35:59:03
Maybe, you know, males
there lost the competitions or something,

01:35:59:03 - 01:36:03:10
but that didn't fit what they saw
so that they began to realize that, oh,

01:36:03:11 - 01:36:06:24
these are a completely separate
and distinct population,

01:36:07:28 - 01:36:11:02
and they had seen enough to

01:36:11:03 - 01:36:14:13
at least suspect
that they had completely different diet,

01:36:15:08 - 01:36:19:21
that the transients had only mammals,
and that the residents had only fish.

01:36:20:06 - 01:36:21:24
They didn't phrase it that way.

01:36:21:24 - 01:36:24:27
They said specialized or primarily

01:36:24:27 - 01:36:27:27
only mammals and fish actively, but,

01:36:28:21 - 01:36:31:21
but that's what they were beginning
to see.

01:36:33:21 - 01:36:36:19
Well, I'm there with this sociological

01:36:36:19 - 01:36:39:19
imagination, and I'm seeing,

01:36:40:04 - 01:36:44:10
well, okay, they're using some kind
of vocal communication,

01:36:45:00 - 01:36:50:26
and they are supporting themselves
or have in ancient

01:36:50:26 - 01:36:56:23
history,
sorted themselves into separate cultures.

01:36:58:03 - 01:37:01:00
These were cultures,

01:37:01:00 - 01:37:03:02
as I was understanding.

01:37:03:02 - 01:37:06:04
And of course, that was, totally,

01:37:07:07 - 01:37:09:03
you know, beyond the pale.

01:37:09:03 - 01:37:12:03
Nobody was talking about cultures.

01:37:12:07 - 01:37:14:27
It was completely, you know,

01:37:14:27 - 01:37:20:24
these were just animals,
and you just study them objectively, study

01:37:20:24 - 01:37:27:00
their population dynamics, their lifespan,
their reproductive rates, their,

01:37:27:17 - 01:37:32:00
you know, their association
patterns, their behavior, their diets.

01:37:34:11 - 01:37:37:11
But nobody was talking about culture.

01:37:40:06 - 01:37:41:17
So at this point,

01:37:41:17 - 01:37:44:17
what I would like to do
is share a screen again,

01:37:44:20 - 01:37:47:20
but this time go to my presentation.

01:37:48:13 - 01:37:53:08
Was a okay.

01:37:57:12 - 01:38:01:04
And that and you're listening
to this of Howie

01:38:01:04 - 01:38:04:09
Garrett, who's the president of the board
of directors for Orca Network.

01:38:04:09 - 01:38:07:04
And now we do see your presentation.

01:38:07:04 - 01:38:10:04
Yeah. Okay. That's great.

01:38:10:12 - 01:38:10:23
All right.

01:38:10:23 - 01:38:14:26
So this actually was given several years
ago, and,

01:38:15:01 - 01:38:19:11
it was, about Koki

01:38:19:13 - 01:38:23:12
Lolita in, Miami at the time.

01:38:24:01 - 01:38:28:10
So I started with the captive audience
and her natural history.

01:38:29:01 - 01:38:32:01
And what?

01:38:32:09 - 01:38:36:19
I tried to produce this presentation

01:38:36:19 - 01:38:39:19
in 2016, in Friday Harbor.

01:38:40:16 - 01:38:43:16
And, so I was introducing

01:38:44:19 - 01:38:47:19
the sociology of orcas.

01:38:48:05 - 01:38:49:16
And I want to say here,

01:38:49:16 - 01:38:52:16
just in case there's, any concerns

01:38:52:19 - 01:38:55:13
that this does not replace

01:38:55:13 - 01:38:58:18
the the Democrat studies everything

01:38:58:24 - 01:39:02:27
that is still ongoing
in terms of population studies,

01:39:03:15 - 01:39:07:05
the dynamics, Josh's presentation,

01:39:07:20 - 01:39:11:04
this is all important information.

01:39:12:07 - 01:39:14:15
That is the context.

01:39:14:15 - 01:39:17:15
This is the foundation for

01:39:17:23 - 01:39:21:24
or what I'm going to try to introduce,
which is a new paradigm,

01:39:22:06 - 01:39:25:22
but it's built on the decades of research,

01:39:27:02 - 01:39:28:21
that has been done.

01:39:28:21 - 01:39:34:03
The population studies
that we have already established

01:39:34:03 - 01:39:37:03
and documented.

01:39:38:09 - 01:39:44:16
And, You talk about the sociology

01:39:44:16 - 01:39:47:16
of workers is, kind of a taboo.

01:39:47:27 - 01:39:53:17
And part of the science of sociology
is taboos.

01:39:53:17 - 01:39:54:21
What are taboos?

01:39:54:21 - 01:39:57:25
Every culture has them, many of them.

01:39:58:20 - 01:40:01:20
So, that will come into play here.

01:40:03:01 - 01:40:07:14
But as I was saying, 
nobody talked about culturing whales

01:40:07:14 - 01:40:13:01
and dolphins in the 1980s
or 90s until 2001.

01:40:13:22 - 01:40:17:11
And that was when, Ruth Rendell
and Howe Whitehead

01:40:18:15 - 01:40:22:13
wrote and published this paper
in the very prestigious Journal

01:40:22:13 - 01:40:25:22
of Behavioral and Brain Sciences called

01:40:25:22 - 01:40:28:22
Culture in Whales and Dolphins.

01:40:28:22 - 01:40:31:28
And what they said
right there in the abstract is,

01:40:33:13 - 01:40:36:13
hello, the complex and stable

01:40:37:03 - 01:40:41:25
and behavioral cultures
of symmetric groups of killer whales

01:40:41:25 - 01:40:46:27
or signs or,
appear to have no parallel outside humans

01:40:47:14 - 01:40:51:25
and represent an independent evolution
and cultural faculties.

01:40:53:02 - 01:40:57:13
And that gave me, a big sigh of relief,

01:40:57:13 - 01:41:00:18
because that was basically what

01:41:00:18 - 01:41:03:18
I had been holding inside,

01:41:03:19 - 01:41:06:19
thinking and reality checking

01:41:06:23 - 01:41:09:23
for almost 20 years at that point

01:41:10:20 - 01:41:14:28
that yes,
they do live as members of cultures.

01:41:14:28 - 01:41:19:10
They do live in learned cultures
that they they,

01:41:19:17 - 01:41:23:19
they, they,
they learn from their ancestors

01:41:23:28 - 01:41:27:00
and from their families
and from other members

01:41:27:00 - 01:41:31:11
of their cultures. But.

01:41:33:16 - 01:41:34:28
One thing that,

01:41:34:28 - 01:41:37:28
Rendell and Whitehead make clear

01:41:38:04 - 01:41:41:10
is that
they did not want to talk about language.

01:41:42:07 - 01:41:45:10
They say that, yes, language is essential

01:41:45:24 - 01:41:49:04
for human cultures, but there is no data

01:41:49:04 - 01:41:52:22
and no basis for speculating on

01:41:53:01 - 01:41:56:20
whether or not workers use language.

01:41:56:20 - 01:42:00:00
So they punted
completely on that issue. So

01:42:01:04 - 01:42:02:11
what they did

01:42:02:11 - 01:42:05:11
was establish the objective fact,

01:42:05:11 - 01:42:08:11
the the the field reality

01:42:08:26 - 01:42:11:26
that workers are found in cultures.

01:42:13:04 - 01:42:16:04
So that was a big start.

01:42:16:14 - 01:42:24:07
But it didn't seem to really trigger

01:42:24:07 - 01:42:27:07
any,

01:42:27:24 - 01:42:30:09
deeper look into what

01:42:30:09 - 01:42:34:07
what makes a culture
how how do cultures evolve?

01:42:35:02 - 01:42:37:16
And what what are they?

01:42:37:16 - 01:42:38:24
What keeps them together?

01:42:38:24 - 01:42:41:12
What maintains cultures?

01:42:41:12 - 01:42:45:07
Let's see, I've got, the top of this.

01:42:45:13 - 01:42:47:14
There's got it. There's a banner there.

01:42:47:14 - 01:42:50:11
You know,
there's a way to get rid of that.

01:42:50:11 - 01:42:53:11
I think,

01:42:54:09 - 01:42:55:22
Well, let's see.

01:42:55:22 - 01:42:57:01
Okay.

01:42:57:01 - 01:43:01:23
But anyway, there were other studies
that sort of, ventured

01:43:01:23 - 01:43:05:03
into talking about culture,
cultural identity

01:43:05:16 - 01:43:08:16
that's important in this species
in both the North,

01:43:10:08 - 01:43:13:06
north, the North Atlantic and the Pacific.

01:43:13:06 - 01:43:16:10
That was a study from 2016.

01:43:17:06 - 01:43:21:07
And,

01:43:22:05 - 01:43:24:04
the sperm whale study,

01:43:24:04 - 01:43:27:10
shows that, sperm whales form

01:43:27:10 - 01:43:31:06
clans with diverse cultures and languages.

01:43:31:27 - 01:43:34:27
So at least in sort of the popular media,

01:43:34:29 - 01:43:37:23
there is some, discussion

01:43:37:23 - 01:43:41:09
of, of whale cultures,

01:43:41:17 - 01:43:44:17
including the idea of languages.

01:43:48:07 - 01:43:50:08
So the question

01:43:50:08 - 01:43:53:07
presented to those that shared

01:43:53:07 - 01:43:56:10
a logical community was,

01:43:57:27 - 01:44:00:25
how did this happen?

01:44:00:25 - 01:44:03:00
How did how did

01:44:03:00 - 01:44:06:00
the cultures develop?

01:44:06:04 - 01:44:10:16
That it was
and still is a very big question.

01:44:10:16 - 01:44:14:20
And the the whole issue of, speciation

01:44:14:20 - 01:44:18:03
should there be separate species
and, you know,

01:44:19:23 - 01:44:23:01
there was a, a big debate

01:44:23:16 - 01:44:29:01
and a proposal to designate, residents
and transients

01:44:29:01 - 01:44:32:01
as separate species, give them new

01:44:32:18 - 01:44:35:18
Latin names,

01:44:35:29 - 01:44:40:06
and, that was by a whisker

01:44:40:06 - 01:44:45:28
that was, declined at the,
society for Marine Mammal Allergy.

01:44:47:17 - 01:44:50:17
But it sort of left the issue open.

01:44:52:08 - 01:44:56:12
But at least there is
this understanding at.

01:44:58:13 - 01:45:02:06
Culture can guide evolution

01:45:02:19 - 01:45:06:19
that the the evolution of the species

01:45:06:19 - 01:45:10:09
of the different communities of orcas,

01:45:11:03 - 01:45:16:13
are determined or at least in, the great

01:45:17:14 - 01:45:19:16
to a great extent effected

01:45:19:16 - 01:45:23:19
by their culture, their cultural rules,

01:45:24:07 - 01:45:29:25
the taboos, for mating in particular,

01:45:30:12 - 01:45:33:12
that it's, you know, internal

01:45:33:25 - 01:45:36:17
made it mating practices,

01:45:36:17 - 01:45:41:15
so that, residents don't mate
with transients or with northern residents

01:45:41:15 - 01:45:47:10
or with any other community,
all maintain their insulation

01:45:47:10 - 01:45:50:10
and, cohesion.

01:45:51:07 - 01:45:52:16
And those are rules.

01:45:52:16 - 01:45:56:24
And those over time,
over thousands of generations,

01:45:57:13 - 01:46:00:20
affect
the evolution of each of those species

01:46:01:15 - 01:46:05:29
of those communities, I should say,
although are they species or not?

01:46:05:29 - 01:46:07:14
It's still an open question.

01:46:08:24 - 01:46:11:24
So we have slight

01:46:12:07 - 01:46:14:05
morphological differences.

01:46:14:05 - 01:46:17:13
The, the, you know, pigmentation,

01:46:18:09 - 01:46:22:01
the shapes of different, whales,
the sizes,

01:46:22:21 - 01:46:26:10
are different in different, communities.

01:46:29:10 - 01:46:31:25
So that was in the literature.

01:46:31:25 - 01:46:36:11
Orcas are the first non-humans
whose evolution is driven by culture.

01:46:37:06 - 01:46:40:05
This is 2016.

01:46:40:05 - 01:46:43:05
This is, becoming apparent.

01:46:43:27 - 01:46:46:25
So my problem

01:46:46:25 - 01:46:49:29
is that
I have this background in sociology,

01:46:49:29 - 01:46:52:29
but now I'm now immersed in cytology,

01:46:53:14 - 01:46:56:18
and there is a big gap in between.

01:46:57:13 - 01:47:01:21
And sociologists
don't talk to geologists or vice versa.

01:47:02:14 - 01:47:07:22
They just, they speak different languages
and don't associate at all.

01:47:07:22 - 01:47:10:22
They're like residents and transients.

01:47:10:29 - 01:47:13:19
So what I want to do is

01:47:13:19 - 01:47:17:00
leap across that gap and,

01:47:17:08 - 01:47:20:03
see how sociology can help

01:47:20:03 - 01:47:23:11
inform psychology and,

01:47:24:20 - 01:47:27:20
vice versa.

01:47:29:26 - 01:47:34:14
So. This question

01:47:35:19 - 01:47:38:10
is, how did these

01:47:38:10 - 01:47:42:07
intact, cohesive
communities of workers developed?

01:47:43:19 - 01:47:45:06
Because

01:47:45:06 - 01:47:47:27
that's not found anywhere else in nature.

01:47:47:27 - 01:47:52:19
You won't find two populations
of black bears on the same mountain

01:47:53:10 - 01:47:57:07
that are completely separate and distinct
and have different diets

01:47:57:07 - 01:48:00:07
and never interbreed.

01:48:01:12 - 01:48:05:10
It's just not found in wildlife biology
anywhere else.

01:48:05:10 - 01:48:09:03
Other species of whales, do squirrels

01:48:09:03 - 01:48:12:03
at least may have this, but,

01:48:13:10 - 01:48:15:18
it's just not found
anywhere else in nature.

01:48:15:18 - 01:48:18:09
So what's the explanation?

01:48:18:09 - 01:48:22:01
So here was a paper
that argued that they are undergoing

01:48:22:01 - 01:48:26:28
ecological speciation
as a result of dietary specializations.

01:48:26:28 - 01:48:29:00
In other words,

01:48:29:00 - 01:48:32:00
first came the dietary specializations.

01:48:32:27 - 01:48:35:28
And that separated different communities.

01:48:36:14 - 01:48:40:27
And so then they just maintained
those separations,

01:48:41:29 - 01:48:44:29
as cultures.

01:48:45:28 - 01:48:48:07
Okay. That's one theory.

01:48:48:07 - 01:48:50:17
Dietary specializations.

01:48:50:17 - 01:48:54:01
And the other theory, came out in 2015.

01:48:54:19 - 01:48:57:23
Our data suggests that glacial cycles

01:48:58:03 - 01:49:03:11
influenced local populations
and have played a major role

01:49:03:11 - 01:49:07:21
in geographic radiations,
diversification and speciation.

01:49:07:22 - 01:49:13:04
And so maybe they got separated
by glaciers or glacial cycles.

01:49:14:00 - 01:49:17:00
And then the glaciers thawed.

01:49:17:21 - 01:49:22:08
But those separations continue
for some reason.

01:49:22:21 - 01:49:25:21
Well, that's not well explained.

01:49:25:29 - 01:49:29:22
Just an attempt
to explain the origins here.

01:49:31:05 - 01:49:33:08
So it seems like there is

01:49:33:08 - 01:49:37:01
this grasping for a cause,

01:49:37:01 - 01:49:40:24
a original cause for the separation

01:49:40:24 - 01:49:45:20
into the different communities of orcas
that we see

01:49:45:20 - 01:49:49:19
that are very well established
and documented around the world.

01:49:51:27 - 01:49:54:12
And here is this,

01:49:54:12 - 01:49:57:02
great graphic by recorder,

01:49:57:02 - 01:50:00:04
that's now about ten years old, but that,

01:50:00:21 - 01:50:03:15
goes into the northern hemisphere,

01:50:03:15 - 01:50:06:25
southern hemisphere in the main

01:50:07:10 - 01:50:10:18
communities, of orcas that,

01:50:11:22 - 01:50:12:28
were known at that time.

01:50:12:28 - 01:50:15:28
There's a few more know now.

01:50:16:10 - 01:50:20:04
I was excited to hear a couple of weeks
ago of the discovery,

01:50:20:19 - 01:50:24:29
actually, from photos that go back
almost 20 years.

01:50:24:29 - 01:50:29:25
But, the scientific description
that Ingrid Visser wrote up

01:50:30:16 - 01:50:33:16
of a population of workers in Fiji,

01:50:34:11 - 01:50:37:11
or around the Fiji Islands.

01:50:37:17 - 01:50:40:19
And, one unique characteristic there

01:50:40:19 - 01:50:44:19
is that some of them have no saddle
patch at all.

01:50:45:01 - 01:50:48:11
There are a lot of variations
in saddle patch, as we can see.

01:50:48:11 - 01:50:53:29
But, this was the first community
I've heard of that had no saddle patch.

01:50:53:29 - 01:50:56:24
So they're still being discovered.

01:50:56:24 - 01:50:59:12
Different communities of orchids
around the world.

01:50:59:12 - 01:51:02:10
They inhabit every ocean in the world,

01:51:02:10 - 01:51:05:06
but they have not all
been described for science.

01:51:09:19 - 01:51:12:28
And about
ten years ago, this issue of the.

01:51:13:09 - 01:51:17:23
Yes, newsletter
the killer whale, the top, top predator

01:51:18:09 - 01:51:21:09
attitude by Robert Pittman,

01:51:22:15 - 01:51:26:08
really went a long way toward
describing the different communities

01:51:26:08 - 01:51:31:00
and sort of the whole phenomenon
of what our killer whale,

01:51:31:24 - 01:51:35:19
what is the radiation of killer whale?

01:51:36:19 - 01:51:39:19
Communities, cultures around the world.

01:51:40:26 - 01:51:43:13
And he says

01:51:43:13 - 01:51:46:16
in this, issue that the term eco type

01:51:47:18 - 01:51:51:19
then merely recognizes
scientific uncertainty

01:51:52:06 - 01:51:55:06
with regard to killer whale diversity.

01:51:55:08 - 01:51:59:09
And until we know more about killer
whale speciation,

01:52:00:07 - 01:52:04:04
was it Terry specialization
or was it really taken,

01:52:04:04 - 01:52:07:12
you know,
what separated the communities originally,

01:52:08:12 - 01:52:13:01
the term eco type will remain
a placeholder or a work in progress.

01:52:13:01 - 01:52:16:04
So it's a word that describes

01:52:17:03 - 01:52:21:05
the different communities,
but it doesn't really describe them.

01:52:21:05 - 01:52:23:16
They just names
and it's just a label for them.

01:52:25:03 - 01:52:26:10
And here, of

01:52:26:10 - 01:52:29:10
course, this is the well-known distinction

01:52:29:10 - 01:52:32:10
between big killer whales and residents,

01:52:32:12 - 01:52:35:19
their diets or vocalizations or sizes.

01:52:36:11 - 01:52:40:13
No dispersal from either
and no recruitment.

01:52:40:21 - 01:52:44:20
They don't compete for food,
but the result is Jim Patrick

01:52:44:20 - 01:52:49:02
speciation in the same habitat,
crossing paths all the time.

01:52:49:17 - 01:52:51:25
Very well aware of each other.

01:52:51:25 - 01:52:56:05
But no interaction, no association at all.

01:52:58:20 - 01:53:01:09
And of course, this is a really

01:53:01:09 - 01:53:04:20
burning question in, in cytology

01:53:05:03 - 01:53:07:25
understanding or culture.

01:53:07:25 - 01:53:11:10
The was by, Lisa Stiffler 2011.

01:53:12:02 - 01:53:17:00
Scientists have found increasing evidence
that culture shapes what work is

01:53:17:09 - 01:53:20:09
and how orcas eat what they do for fun,

01:53:20:14 - 01:53:23:00
even their choice of mates.

01:53:23:00 - 01:53:27:21
So that's established
a move in each conflict.

01:53:27:25 - 01:53:30:21
Learned culture,

01:53:30:21 - 01:53:33:29
and how how does that happen?

01:53:36:15 - 01:53:38:21
Well, we can look at maybe

01:53:38:21 - 01:53:42:08
some of the behaviors,
some of these social behaviors.

01:53:42:08 - 01:53:45:08
And this is about as good a photo

01:53:45:08 - 01:53:48:23
as you can get of, a ceremony.

01:53:49:27 - 01:53:53:01
Workers have rituals, they have ceremony.

01:53:53:25 - 01:53:56:04
And one is,

01:53:56:04 - 01:53:59:04
a greeting ceremony when pods meet up.

01:53:59:14 - 01:54:03:08
Sometimes,
I mean, this, I've seen it a few times

01:54:03:08 - 01:54:07:15
back in the 90s, but,
it's it's pretty rare.

01:54:07:15 - 01:54:10:06
Pretty hard to see.
Maybe it happens out in the Pacific.

01:54:10:06 - 01:54:13:06
That was a site
now where they are more often now.

01:54:14:11 - 01:54:17:17
But they line up in their pod formation.

01:54:18:06 - 01:54:22:18
K pod, l pod J pod in separate lines

01:54:23:09 - 01:54:26:09
facing each other for several minutes,

01:54:27:05 - 01:54:29:25
and then those lines dissolve

01:54:29:25 - 01:54:34:10
and they meet in the middle,
but not all in one group,

01:54:34:10 - 01:54:37:10
in a whole lot of separate groups,
each having,

01:54:38:00 - 01:54:42:16
from what I witnessed, 15
to 20 or so individuals

01:54:43:05 - 01:54:46:24
that, are rolling around, a lot of,

01:54:46:24 - 01:54:51:17
you know, frenetic,
touchy feely contact and, and,

01:54:52:21 - 01:54:55:14
it's mostly underwater and it's very loud.

01:54:55:14 - 01:54:57:21
If you listen to the hydrophones.

01:54:57:21 - 01:55:00:21
It's the loudest cocktail party
you've ever been to.

01:55:01:06 - 01:55:04:06
And eventually
they have to come up and breathe,

01:55:04:26 - 01:55:08:12
and then they disperse and meet up

01:55:08:12 - 01:55:13:19
into different groupings
with a different set of individuals.

01:55:14:01 - 01:55:17:01
Always a mixture of different pods still.

01:55:17:11 - 01:55:23:01
And then having this is sort of, 
ceremonial whatever they're doing.

01:55:23:01 - 01:55:26:01
Very, you know, close contact,

01:55:26:22 - 01:55:29:22
behavior underwater.

01:55:30:16 - 01:55:33:16
And then you eventually rise up and go off

01:55:33:16 - 01:55:36:17
in and form into new and different groups.

01:55:37:25 - 01:55:40:23
And this is how it looks

01:55:40:23 - 01:55:43:23
when they come up for air.

01:55:44:03 - 01:55:46:06
I don't recommend this boat behavior,

01:55:46:06 - 01:55:49:20
but this was, what was seen,

01:55:50:15 - 01:55:54:14
much more commonly, in the 70s

01:55:54:14 - 01:55:58:19
and 80s and into the 90s
and very rarely today.

01:55:58:19 - 01:56:02:22
This kind of very
close association behavior

01:56:03:28 - 01:56:06:28
does happen, but it's rare.

01:56:09:16 - 01:56:12:12
So back to this study,

01:56:12:12 - 01:56:17:01
from Luke Randall
and Hal Whitehead in 2001.

01:56:17:29 - 01:56:20:25
And this was what I mentioned before.

01:56:20:25 - 01:56:24:29
Human culture is intimately linked
to both language and symbolism,

01:56:25:06 - 01:56:28:28
but there is currently no empirical basis
for discussing the role

01:56:28:28 - 01:56:32:21
or non role of language in symbolism
in cetacean culture.

01:56:33:14 - 01:56:37:05
Well, I would like to discuss the role
of language

01:56:37:05 - 01:56:40:05
and symbolism, institution and culture.

01:56:41:00 - 01:56:44:00
And that depends on

01:56:44:18 - 01:56:46:24
the concepts

01:56:46:24 - 01:56:49:24
that I learn in sociology

01:56:49:24 - 01:56:53:11
applied to study of corpus.

01:56:54:00 - 01:56:56:25
Because of course human culture

01:56:56:25 - 01:56:59:25
and sociology are very much,

01:57:01:04 - 01:57:03:15
dependent on your,

01:57:03:15 - 01:57:07:10
you know, intertwined
with the idea of language and symbolism

01:57:08:03 - 01:57:10:29
as being the guiding forces

01:57:10:29 - 01:57:13:29
that create cultures.

01:57:14:16 - 01:57:15:13
And this was,

01:57:15:13 - 01:57:18:13
my teacher, this was Herbert Bloomer.

01:57:18:26 - 01:57:20:19
He wrote the book on it.

01:57:20:19 - 01:57:23:16
Like I said. And these were his

01:57:24:19 - 01:57:27:17
sort of, basic principles

01:57:27:17 - 01:57:32:08
of what is symbolic
interaction is how do humans interact.

01:57:32:08 - 01:57:35:08
And of course,
the whole field of sociology

01:57:36:07 - 01:57:40:02
would never allow that any other animal on

01:57:40:02 - 01:57:44:04
the planet could possibly be
practicing symbolic interaction.

01:57:44:04 - 01:57:46:20
As and this was all

01:57:46:20 - 01:57:49:20
utterly, about humans.

01:57:49:26 - 01:57:55:01
We asked for things on the basis
of the meanings that things have for us.

01:57:55:16 - 01:57:59:26
These meanings become modified
through an interpretive process.

01:58:01:04 - 01:58:04:19
The meanings of such things
derive from the social interaction

01:58:04:19 - 01:58:07:19
each one has with others,

01:58:08:07 - 01:58:09:27
and Blumer contrasted

01:58:09:27 - 01:58:15:14
this process with behaviorist
explanations of human behavior.

01:58:15:21 - 01:58:18:21
We could substitute orca behavior,

01:58:18:27 - 01:58:21:27
which does not allow for interpretation

01:58:21:27 - 01:58:24:27
between stimulus and response

01:58:25:09 - 01:58:27:06
when orcas are interacting.

01:58:27:06 - 01:58:29:19
In other words,

01:58:29:19 - 01:58:33:06
if we apply these concepts, they are

01:58:34:13 - 01:58:36:26
communicating meanings to each other,

01:58:36:26 - 01:58:39:26
and those meanings are interpreted

01:58:40:08 - 01:58:44:03
by each member, each listener, each,

01:58:44:20 - 01:58:48:15
each receiver of the communication.

01:58:50:22 - 01:58:52:18
And limited

01:58:52:18 - 01:58:55:18
symbolic interaction
is possible for humans

01:58:55:18 - 01:59:02:03
because we have highly developed brains,
we rely heavily on society,

01:59:02:03 - 01:59:07:02
and we are able to make many subtle
and sophisticated sounds.

01:59:08:21 - 01:59:10:18
Will check

01:59:10:18 - 01:59:13:18
big brains or brains, or five times

01:59:13:28 - 01:59:16:28
size of human brains.

01:59:17:10 - 01:59:19:22
They rely heavily on society.

01:59:19:22 - 01:59:22:22
They are probably the most social mammal,

01:59:23:08 - 01:59:25:19
known to science.

01:59:25:19 - 01:59:28:11
And orcas are certainly able to make

01:59:28:11 - 01:59:31:18
many subtle and sophisticated sounds.

01:59:32:05 - 01:59:36:21
Those are the prerequisites,
those are wired

01:59:36:21 - 01:59:39:21
for any animal to be able to

01:59:40:12 - 01:59:43:09
use symbolic interaction,

01:59:43:09 - 01:59:47:06
to build cultures, to build associations

01:59:47:10 - 01:59:51:28
and institutions, ceremonies.

01:59:52:07 - 01:59:56:14
Behavior, and

01:59:58:12 - 02:00:00:23
workers have all that.

02:00:00:23 - 02:00:03:23
They certainly can do it.

02:00:04:22 - 02:00:08:13
And the guiding ethic seems to be

02:00:08:13 - 02:00:11:28
we are strongest when we are together.

02:00:13:13 - 02:00:17:19
So there is a lot more
that can be said about that.

02:00:18:07 - 02:00:20:15
And, we're up to,

02:00:21:18 - 02:00:24:07
about 15 minutes before

02:00:24:07 - 02:00:27:14
the next presentation,
maybe some time for Q&A.

02:00:28:04 - 02:00:30:24
But what I want to say, okay, I will stop

02:00:30:24 - 02:00:33:24
share here.

02:00:36:25 - 02:00:42:01
Is that that behavior with Mark out

02:00:42:24 - 02:00:45:24
west on Swift sure bank when IL 83

02:00:46:16 - 02:00:49:16
brought little emaciated

02:00:50:01 - 02:00:52:05
L1 28

02:00:52:05 - 02:00:54:15
at about three weeks old, but

02:00:54:15 - 02:00:57:15
either dead or dying.

02:00:59:02 - 02:01:02:16
Is she intending to tell him something?

02:01:02:28 - 02:01:05:01
Was there a message?

02:01:05:01 - 02:01:08:01
Was that a meaningful communication

02:01:08:10 - 02:01:11:19
to him, an attempt
at a meaningful communication?

02:01:12:16 - 02:01:15:10
But of course,
it depends on interpretation.

02:01:15:10 - 02:01:20:19
It depends on the reception
and the understanding of what it is.

02:01:21:12 - 02:01:24:06
Art describes it objectively,

02:01:24:06 - 02:01:26:15
but went away pretty shook up,

02:01:26:15 - 02:01:29:05
and the experience,

02:01:29:05 - 02:01:32:05
and is probably still processing
what happened.

02:01:33:04 - 02:01:35:05
But yes, it's an anecdote,

02:01:35:05 - 02:01:39:13
but it's also a, it fits a pattern.

02:01:39:17 - 02:01:43:12
When there's enough anecdotes,
they become data. And

02:01:44:12 - 02:01:47:12
what happened in 2018

02:01:47:19 - 02:01:53:19
when J35 Tahlequah was calf died
right in front of Mark's eyes again.

02:01:54:14 - 02:01:59:05
But she carried that calf around
for 17 days

02:01:59:28 - 02:02:03:28
in a very populated area
with a lot of boats around,

02:02:03:28 - 02:02:09:00
a lot of cameras and,
we don't know how much they know

02:02:09:14 - 02:02:15:21
about what, 
what our behavior means, what we're doing.

02:02:16:15 - 02:02:18:13
But they certainly knew.

02:02:18:13 - 02:02:21:13
She knew that they were being seen.

02:02:22:02 - 02:02:27:07
And, Ken called it a tour of grief.

02:02:28:02 - 02:02:32:01
And it just seemed

02:02:32:01 - 02:02:35:01
to be trying to say something.

02:02:35:11 - 02:02:38:08
And of course, we know,

02:02:38:08 - 02:02:42:16
Ken had studied his established since,

02:02:43:04 - 02:02:47:27
you know, since the population decline
between 1995

02:02:47:27 - 02:02:51:08
and 2001 of about 20% that triggered

02:02:51:24 - 02:02:55:09
the endangered species listing that

02:02:55:17 - 02:02:58:27
the primary overriding problem

02:02:59:14 - 02:03:02:14
is lack of sufficient Chinook salmon,

02:03:02:26 - 02:03:06:25
that they have specialized
for thousands of years on Chinook salmon

02:03:06:25 - 02:03:11:01
that have been abundant in these waters
Year-Round for thousands of years.

02:03:11:19 - 02:03:14:27
But now, due to multiple multiple habitat,

02:03:15:26 - 02:03:17:05
degradations,

02:03:17:05 - 02:03:20:19
damming of rivers, overharvesting,

02:03:21:06 - 02:03:24:26
that, there are just very few Chinook.

02:03:24:26 - 02:03:28:29
Many populations are completely extinct
and many are endangered,

02:03:29:22 - 02:03:34:11
whether it's just a small percentage
or a single digit percentage

02:03:34:22 - 02:03:38:02
of the former numbers of Chinook salmon,

02:03:38:29 - 02:03:42:27
they can eat other species,
but they don't have the caloric value.

02:03:42:29 - 02:03:45:22
They don't have the nutrition.

02:03:45:22 - 02:03:48:13
And of course, a

02:03:48:13 - 02:03:51:13
pregnant female carrying a young

02:03:52:10 - 02:03:55:13
and then lactating to, nurse

02:03:55:13 - 02:03:59:11
that young needs twice
as much as all the rest.

02:03:59:11 - 02:04:02:20
And, 
so that's when they are most vulnerable.

02:04:02:20 - 02:04:06:09
And that is what is limiting

02:04:06:09 - 02:04:09:15
the population of the southern residents

02:04:09:15 - 02:04:12:15
now is reproductive failure

02:04:12:15 - 02:04:16:13
is basically miscarriages
and infant mortality.

02:04:17:06 - 02:04:21:13
So, that seemed to be the message.

02:04:22:04 - 02:04:26:17
I mean, it seems pretty clear to me
that they know what's happening there.

02:04:26:18 - 02:04:29:29
You know, what's what's happened to

02:04:29:29 - 02:04:32:29
their families are down to 73 now,

02:04:33:15 - 02:04:38:16
which was where they were
when the studies began, basically in 1976.

02:04:38:16 - 02:04:41:16
They were at about 70 or 71,

02:04:41:25 - 02:04:44:22
and they went up in the mid 1990s

02:04:44:22 - 02:04:47:22
to almost 198, 99

02:04:48:16 - 02:04:54:04
and then dropped off, to 2001,
where they were back to 73.

02:04:54:04 - 02:04:56:05
And that's where they are now.

02:04:56:05 - 02:04:59:17
So, they know what's happening

02:04:59:17 - 02:05:02:24
and I'm sure they associate
human activity.

02:05:03:14 - 02:05:05:02
What's happening.

02:05:05:02 - 02:05:06:23
And they know Mark.

02:05:06:23 - 02:05:09:28
Mark has been out there
with them for over 20 years.

02:05:09:28 - 02:05:12:13
They know him. They know his boat.

02:05:12:13 - 02:05:15:22
I think he was trying to ask him,

02:05:16:28 - 02:05:21:27
tell to do something or stop doing

02:05:21:27 - 02:05:26:08
whatever it is that is, decimating
the German populations.

02:05:26:21 - 02:05:28:01
Thank you for that.

02:05:28:01 - 02:05:32:08
Thank you for raising
all of that awareness for us, Howie.

02:05:32:08 - 02:05:35:03
That is critical information observation

02:05:35:03 - 02:05:39:08
that you and others are doing,
not only with the Orca network.

02:05:39:17 - 02:05:41:09
And this is Howie Garrett.

02:05:41:09 - 02:05:42:19
He's the president of the board

02:05:42:19 - 02:05:46:11
of directors
for the Orca Network in Washington state.

02:05:46:25 - 02:05:51:09
And he has been talking with us
for this past hour

02:05:51:28 - 02:05:56:27
about all these critical, complex
social issues that, impact

02:05:57:06 - 02:06:02:07
the orcas and other ocean life,
that lives in our seas,

02:06:02:17 - 02:06:07:15
and that bringing this awareness
to our audience is so important.

02:06:07:27 - 02:06:11:23
And this is why we are doing this
annual symposium

02:06:11:23 - 02:06:17:19
every year, is to bring voices
like yours out here on YouTube, on radio,

02:06:17:19 - 02:06:22:19
where independent public radio station,
a small one in Northern California

02:06:22:19 - 02:06:25:29
on the south Mendocino
coast and northern Sonoma Coast.

02:06:26:10 - 02:06:29:10
This is Kaga 88.3 FM.

02:06:29:10 - 02:06:32:26
I'm Lee and Lindsay,
a filmmaker and audio producer

02:06:33:06 - 02:06:36:04
and GM of this
station, and also along with.

02:06:38:04 - 02:06:39:07
Experts

02:06:39:07 - 02:06:43:06
of whales as well with the Minda,
Noma, Whale and Seals study.

02:06:43:06 - 02:06:46:18
Scott and Tre Mercer,
who are with us today.

02:06:46:18 - 02:06:49:18
They have an extensive background
that I'll go into.

02:06:49:18 - 02:06:51:03
But before I do that,

02:06:51:03 - 02:06:55:02
I want to bring them to the stage here
and get you guys to talk

02:06:55:02 - 02:06:58:05
with Howie about all the critical things
that he was just sharing with us.

02:07:00:16 - 02:07:01:09
Thank you. Yeah.

02:07:01:09 - 02:07:05:07
Howie, it it my way of thinking,

02:07:05:07 - 02:07:11:08
there is no question that these,
these animals, these highly intelligent

02:07:11:08 - 02:07:17:04
social animals are definitely
communicating an important message to us.

02:07:17:19 - 02:07:21:07
To me, the question
is, what are we going to do about it?

02:07:21:07 - 02:07:24:22
Or are we going to listen to this,
or are we going to ignore it

02:07:25:03 - 02:07:31:18
and just carry on with the way we're doing
things now and put them at further risk?

02:07:32:23 - 02:07:34:07
You know that that is my hope.

02:07:34:07 - 02:07:39:04
Is that enough of us
will listen to them and take action.

02:07:40:04 - 02:07:43:20
But my question how is
I may have missed this, I apologize,

02:07:43:20 - 02:07:48:07
I apologize if I do, but El, 90,

02:07:48:07 - 02:07:54:19
was the mom of 128, the calf and l 83.

02:07:54:19 - 02:07:56:09
I was wondering what is there?

02:07:56:09 - 02:08:01:08
Is there a relationship
between L 90 and LA 83?

02:08:02:15 - 02:08:06:14
It's not, a direct
natural line relationship.

02:08:06:14 - 02:08:08:01
They're not sisters.

02:08:08:01 - 02:08:12:29
El 90 has no more members
of her natural line at all.

02:08:13:16 - 02:08:16:10
Meaning? So,

02:08:16:10 - 02:08:19:10
the mother, her siblings, all have died.

02:08:19:14 - 02:08:23:08
So I, you know, we don't know

02:08:24:08 - 02:08:27:05
how they define their relationship,

02:08:27:05 - 02:08:30:10
but certainly, you know,
they have been together

02:08:30:10 - 02:08:33:11
in the same community,
the same part of Bill, but,

02:08:34:28 - 02:08:37:18
for, you know, ever.

02:08:37:18 - 02:08:42:01
And so they, you know,
they're all one big extended family.

02:08:42:01 - 02:08:45:04
So maybe a distant cousin,
you know, I mean,

02:08:45:04 - 02:08:48:13
how would we may,
you know, define describe that.

02:08:48:13 - 02:08:54:12
But, they're they're just an intertwined
family, that, you know, they,

02:08:54:19 - 02:08:58:13
they know each other, you know, more
intimately than we ever could.

02:08:59:05 - 02:09:01:13
So, yes, she's family.

02:09:01:13 - 02:09:04:06
I just don't know the exact relationship.

02:09:04:06 - 02:09:07:07
I understand that
that is very fascinating.

02:09:07:07 - 02:09:10:18
And also, you know, quite sad
what has happened.

02:09:11:00 - 02:09:13:23
And, and you will you are quite certain

02:09:13:23 - 02:09:17:29
that this is due to the inability of l 90

02:09:17:29 - 02:09:22:04
the mother to successfully, 
nurse the calf,

02:09:23:00 - 02:09:26:00
because she herself is probably

02:09:26:01 - 02:09:29:01
not as well nourished as she needed to be

02:09:29:07 - 02:09:32:07
to raise this calf properly.

02:09:32:10 - 02:09:33:09
Correct? Yes.

02:09:34:14 - 02:09:35:24
There is likely

02:09:35:24 - 02:09:39:16
this complication
of the compounding effect of the,

02:09:39:21 - 02:09:45:16
toxins, the organic chlorine, PCBs,
pbdes,

02:09:46:01 - 02:09:49:02
hormone disrupting or blocking,

02:09:49:18 - 02:09:53:26
pollutants
that are in the water in the ecosystem,

02:09:54:14 - 02:09:58:15
were dumped in
when they were banned on land.

02:09:58:27 - 02:10:03:12
The barrels of, of this toxin
were dumped into the water.

02:10:03:12 - 02:10:06:12
Is it okay to splash that gun?

02:10:06:29 - 02:10:10:27
But no, it filtered out
into every living thing.

02:10:11:13 - 02:10:14:10
They're molecule by molecule

02:10:14:10 - 02:10:18:06
are lipophilic,
which means they attach to fat cells.

02:10:18:07 - 02:10:23:06
And, of course, whales have huge amounts
of fat cells, their whole blubber layers.

02:10:23:25 - 02:10:27:18
So in, normally they sequester

02:10:28:00 - 02:10:31:02
into the fat levels, layers.

02:10:32:01 - 02:10:35:08
But when, hunger sets

02:10:35:08 - 02:10:38:09
in, when,
you know there is lack of nutrition,

02:10:38:21 - 02:10:43:00
those pastilles are drawn
into the bloodstream for energy.

02:10:44:08 - 02:10:45:20
And that

02:10:45:20 - 02:10:49:18
releases all of these pollutants
that then flood the system.

02:10:50:03 - 02:10:54:21
And, you know, block the hormonal action

02:10:54:21 - 02:10:58:11
in the development
of the calf in particular.

02:10:58:23 - 02:11:01:23
But even in adults that are hungry.

02:11:01:27 - 02:11:04:14
So it's a compounded effect.

02:11:04:14 - 02:11:07:00
But the cascade is

02:11:07:00 - 02:11:11:00
the transient big killer whales,
which are even,

02:11:11:27 - 02:11:16:08
more heavily loaded with the pollutants
because they eat higher on the food chain,

02:11:16:12 - 02:11:19:12
eat those that are already heavily,

02:11:19:17 - 02:11:22:10
loaded with these pollutants

02:11:22:10 - 02:11:24:23
so they have heavier loads,

02:11:24:23 - 02:11:27:14
and yet, they are thriving.

02:11:27:14 - 02:11:32:28
They are reproducing and increasing
at a rate of 4 or 5% a year.

02:11:33:14 - 02:11:36:14
They're doing incredibly well.

02:11:36:15 - 02:11:40:26
And they have all the same issues
with sound, you know, and everything else.

02:11:40:26 - 02:11:45:12
The difference is they have a lot of food
because there's plenty of seals,

02:11:45:29 - 02:11:48:16
and sea lions and porpoises.

02:11:48:16 - 02:11:50:19
And so they've got lots to eat.

02:11:50:19 - 02:11:55:12
And so they do not draw down
their fat supplies for energy.

02:11:55:24 - 02:11:58:19
They've got to have fresh food
all the time.

02:11:58:19 - 02:12:03:07
So that's the case that shows
the different is in the food supply.

02:12:04:02 - 02:12:08:15
And I want to address that in the last
minute or so here that we've got,

02:12:08:28 - 02:12:12:03
how we you mentioned before
about the salmon

02:12:12:03 - 02:12:16:00
being a big part of their diet
and now with the, you know, dams

02:12:16:00 - 02:12:19:03
that are being removed
from some of the rivers,

02:12:19:14 - 02:12:23:07
is that going to help
increase the salmon population

02:12:23:17 - 02:12:26:05
for these whales
so that they do get more nourishment?

02:12:26:05 - 02:12:28:03
And then I want you to

02:12:28:03 - 02:12:31:26
kind of give a quick summary
as we move into the 11:00 hour,

02:12:32:04 - 02:12:35:13
and we've got our next guest
coming up on the Ocean Life Symposium.

02:12:36:10 - 02:12:36:20
Right.

02:12:36:20 - 02:12:38:12
Well,
thank you for bringing that up again,

02:12:38:12 - 02:12:41:01
because that is a very,
very important point.

02:12:41:01 - 02:12:43:02
And the Elwha dams were brought down.

02:12:43:02 - 02:12:45:08
And your presentation here wasn't there?

02:12:45:08 - 02:12:48:19
And that has already produced results

02:12:48:19 - 02:12:52:20
of more Chinook and steelhead,
which orcas also eat.

02:12:53:10 - 02:12:55:27
And now the Klamath dams are down.

02:12:55:27 - 02:12:57:27
So we'll start to see those results.

02:12:57:27 - 02:13:01:17
In fact, already as salmon has gone up
past the former dam site.

02:13:01:17 - 02:13:05:19
So, that that is already showing results

02:13:05:19 - 02:13:10:22
and that is going to increase
the overall salmon for the orcas.

02:13:11:02 - 02:13:14:22
But, yet
remaining the big low hanging fruit

02:13:14:22 - 02:13:18:01
are the four snake River dams.

02:13:18:16 - 02:13:20:16
They really need to be removed.

02:13:20:16 - 02:13:22:23
And that's a huge issue.

02:13:22:23 - 02:13:25:07
But, and we don't have time for it now.

02:13:25:07 - 02:13:27:25
But those four dams need to be removed.

02:13:27:25 - 02:13:29:25
Removed? There's or breached.

02:13:29:25 - 02:13:33:28
And it's really not a big process,
but there's 5000mi²

02:13:34:15 - 02:13:39:12
of pristine
salmon spawning habitat above those dams.

02:13:39:12 - 02:13:44:18
But the smolts, after a year
or so of growth at 6 or 8in,

02:13:45:00 - 02:13:49:19
can't make it to the ocean
because it's 140 miles of slack water.

02:13:50:12 - 02:13:52:05
There's damage. So and Kelly.

02:13:52:05 - 02:13:54:18
You mentioned a documentary.
Just real quick.

02:13:54:18 - 02:13:57:20
If you can give the title of that
and it'll be coming out as soon

02:13:57:20 - 02:13:58:27
as it gets distribution.

02:13:59:29 - 02:14:00:09
There

02:14:00:09 - 02:14:03:15
is a documentary coming out soon, I hope.

02:14:03:15 - 02:14:04:03
We don't know

02:14:04:03 - 02:14:08:01
exactly the distribution yet,
but it's called The Snake and the whale,

02:14:08:18 - 02:14:12:05
and it goes into all these issues
that we've been talking about.

02:14:13:05 - 02:14:13:23
Excellent.

02:14:13:23 - 02:14:17:02
Well, thank you, Howie Garrett,
president of the board of directors

02:14:17:02 - 02:14:21:23
of Orca Network, for joining us today
on the Ocean Life Symposium,

02:14:21:23 - 02:14:25:28
along with Scott and Terry Mercer
of the Mindanao Whale and Seals Study.

02:14:25:28 - 02:14:30:20
We appreciate you being here with us today
on public radio and and on YouTube.

02:14:32:04 - 02:14:32:28
Yeah. Thanks, Howard.

02:14:32:28 - 02:14:34:22
I bet Susan.

02:14:34:22 - 02:14:37:04
I'll race. Your wife, Susan. Berta.