OpenOceans Global Founder Carl Nettleton on Plastics in our Oceans & the UN Plastics Treaty's Next Session Fall 2025

Carl talks about the pressing issue of ocean plastics and his organization's efforts to combat this global crisis. They discuss the origins of OpenOcean's Global, the facts and myths surrounding ocean plastics, and the innovative solutions being implemented worldwide. The conversation emphasizes the importance of collaboration, citizen science, and the need for systemic change to address plastic pollution effectively. They explore the challenges of recycling, the health risks associated with plastics, and innovative solutions for cleanup and prevention. 

takeaways

• OpenOcean's Global aims to aggregate and visualize ocean data.
• Plastic pollution is a significant global challenge, with 75% found on shorelines.
• The majority of ocean plastic originates from a few countries with poor waste management.
• Citizen science plays a crucial role in gathering data on ocean plastics.
• Understanding the flow of plastic waste is essential for effective intervention.
• The UN Treaty on Plastics faces challenges from key countries.
• Our ocean plastic map allows citizen scientists to report pollution.
• Plastic pollution significantly impacts marine life and ecosystems.
• Plastic production is expected to triple by 2040, worsening the crisis.
• There are over 4,000 hazardous chemicals found in plastics.
• Plastic in homes contributes to increased fire risks during wildfires.
• Identifying the source of plastic pollution is crucial for solutions.
• Innovative toolkits can help communities track plastic sources.

Planet Centric Media (non-profit)
Media for a Healthier Planet: Elevating The Interconnectedness of Life & Value of Natural Resources.

Sea Storm Studios, Inc.
An audio/visual production company in the Sea Ranch, CA (US)

Mendonoma Whale & Seal Study
Founded by Scott & Tree Mercer to document the occurrence, diversity, & behavior of marine mammals.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10)
Welcome  the Resilient Earth podcast where we talk with speakers from the United States and around the world about the critical issues facing our planet and the positive actions people are taking. From the tiniest of actions  the grandest of gestures so that we can continue  thrive and survive for generations  come. I'm Leanne Lindsay, producer and host along with co-hosts and co-producers Scott and Tree Mercer.

of Mendonoma whale and seal study located on the south Mendocino and north Sonoma coasts.

The music for this podcast is by Eric Olloman, an international composer, pianist, and writer living in the Sea Ranch. Discover more of his music, animations, ballet, stage, and film work at ericallaman.com.

You can find Resilient Earth on Spotify, Apple, and Amazon podcasts, iHeartRadio, YouTube, SoundCloud, and wherever you find your podcasts.

Today on Resilient Earth Radio and Podcast, we are talking with Carl Nettleton, founder and president of OpenOcean's Global in San Diego. Welcome  the show, Carl.

Speaker 2 (01:53)
Thank you, Leigh Anne. Happy  be here.

Speaker 1 (01:56)
and

I just thought I'd let our listeners know how we met. We had been following the UN Treaty on Plastics last year after speaking with Five Gyres founder and president Marcus Erickson. He was on one of our past episodes and had attended both Canada and South Korea meetings. And then the talks fell through at the end of the year. So we wanted  find out more about what was happening on that. If there was going  be another meeting.

this year. So I reached out  an email list that I have been following by the Octo Group, which is the Open Communications for the Oceans, which researchers and scientists from around the world comment on, including yourself, and you responded. So that's how we met. And today we want  find out more about you, Carl, about your organization, and if you've got an update on the UN Treaty.

on plastics and what is being done about the plastics in our oceans, in our world. Why don't we start with the genesis for open oceans global?

Speaker 2 (03:08)
That goes back a little bit of a ways. goes back , I ran two ocean organizations in the 1980s. And one was the National Coalition for Marine Conservation. We worked a lot on fisheries, fisheries conservation and interesting plastic gill nets. The other was the San Diego Oceans Foundation, which was a group that brought everybody, San Diego is an ocean community. It brought many of the different ocean community members, whether they be fishers, conservation folks, government agencies together  work on

educational projects as a way  have everybody get  know each other and solve problems. And those were two really good formative processes that I learned about. And interesting, back in the 80s, we were doing plastic. We were working on gill net issues, which are monofilament gill nets, ghost

and our organization put together the first coast-wide analysis of marine mammal entanglement. Previous  that, the people in San Diego would see a whale washed up on the beach entangled in a gill net and it would be reported locally. Same in Santa Barbara, but neither region knew that it was happening up and down the coast. So we put together the first database of that and started  learn how sharing information from different regions in a common database can start  create communications in a new way. One more step.

along the way, I was a consultant on ocean issues for a while. was pursuing the city of San Diego on some of their wastewater quality issues. And someone suggested that I work for the city of San Diego. So I worked for the wastewater department, handling their public relations. Then I ended up being the public and media affairs director for the city, created a collaboration that organized a period of intense construction in downtown San Diego. There were over a hundred projects in the drawing board, a number of special events.

We created a map-based tool that would allow folks  see who was doing what that would impact the public and how  avoid the multiplicity of impacts. And that worked so well that it created a community of folks that worked together  make sure that you could work, play, and live in downtown San Diego despite all that activity.

my head said, wait a minute, could we do that with the ocean? And that's when OpenOcean's Global was founded. Back in 2006, actually, our original goal was  aggregate and visualize the world's ocean data  try  bring that whole international ocean community together. It was too big of a bite. We shifted  plastic  show how we could do that with plastic and create an international community focused on how we can stop plastic from reaching the ocean.

Speaker 1 (05:44)
That is no easy task and it seems like you have quite the background that helps you talk a little bit more about how extensive your background is in this area.

Speaker 2 (05:56)
Well, I have done a lot of things. And when we first founded OpenOcean's Global, we literally went around the world. We went  Rio plus 20, we were the Copenhagen climate talks. We were hosted sessions in Abu Dhabi at the Eye on Earth meetings. We've hosted the AGU, American Geophysical Union, Ocean Town Hall, all trying  socialize this concept that data and visualization, primarily mapping, can really work  help people see the world

and issues in one way. And so, as I said, we're focusing now on ocean plastic. mean, along the way, part of my job was  work with government officials at the state and federal level, electorate officials, local officials. And so there's, we've...

learned a lot along the way about government relations. We had  do media along the way, of course. We hopefully, our organization brings a breadth of expertise and experience  help us effectively move through what we need  do  meet our objectives and our goals.

Speaker 1 (07:01)
Your organization seems  have a lot of people working with it. I was impressed when I looked at your website for OpenOcean's Global. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those people?

Speaker 2 (07:11)
We're very proud of our board of directors. We've got a strong working board. These are folks that we've, in some cases we courted for several years, but we've known them over time. We have Dan Reif-Snyder, who was the U.S. climate negotiator for the Paris 2015 treaty. We have the former president of Susan Avery of Woods Hole Oceanographic, Linda Adams, who led Governor Schwarzenegger's international climate efforts when she was the head of the California Environmental Protection Agency.

agency and you know it goes on. Quite a good board, a working board that you know really care about this issue and bring us the expertise and the background  help us move forward. know Dan the climate treaty negotiator really gave us insight and understanding the plastic treaty talks and what was important and what wasn't and kind of help us cut through the clutter if you will.

Speaker 1 (08:04)
Did you attend some of those sessions?

Speaker 2 (08:06)
We have not attended those sessions yet. We've kind of been waiting for, you know, the first three were, I guess I could say stall tactics, depending what you want  think, but they didn't make much progress. So we've been kind of waiting for the right point  come and see where we could make a difference, but I've been following it from afar.

Speaker 1 (08:24)
As I understand it, we've got, I guess it's going  be coming up next week that we're talking with, actually in a couple of weeks, but they're on the board of scientists that are providing data for the UN Treaty on Plastics. from what we gather, the next session, they're trying  plan it for June. Is it Paris or is it London?

Speaker 2 (08:48)
Now I just learned today that the extension of the fifth session, they're calling it 5.2, but in reality it's the sixth session, is going  be held in Geneva. And I just had the date, August 5th through 14th. that's information I just got this morning.

Speaker 1 (09:01)
Really? All right.

news update. love it. yes, that is great. So August again.

Speaker 2 (09:09)
I try  be current.

August

5th through August 14th in Geneva, Switzerland.

Speaker 1 (09:16)
My co-hosts and co-producers, Scott and Tree Mercer, have been studying and watching whales most of their lives. And they've got an organization now that they watch from the shore and observe traffic along our Northern Pacific coast. They used  track both coasts, but they're mostly specifically now on the West coast, on the Pacific. And they were in a documentary by a couple of Berkeley students called Washed  Ashore

And that was just, I think, two years ago. But the data even from then has been changing. And that data mapping is so critical, so important  understanding the full picture. And I want  get  that more in just a little bit. But I think what I'd like  find out first is if you could tell us some of the facts about plastics in our oceans.

Speaker 2 (10:11)
One of the interesting things is that we have in the United States, right here locally, have beach cleanups happening all the time and it's good, good thing  do. But the lack of realization of how much plastic is actually on beaches around the world in certain key areas. And while the United States is one of the top producers of plastic, we export that plastic problem by, as many people know, shipping it overseas  some countries where waste management

and it ends up in the ocean. But we also manufacture overseas in countries with poor waste management. And who knows what, how much less our products cost because not only because of cheaper labor and cheaper materials, but because the cost of waste management is less. It would be more if they manufactured in the U.S. And thirdly, pristine places that we love  visit. They used  have, you know, little low rise houses there and now they have high rise hotels and the people and the plastic products come with it and then end up on their beaches.

That's one of the ways I don't want  underestimate what we do. It's a lot, but where the waste actually hits the ocean is not on our shores. It's probably less than 1 % of it comes from our shores. As much as the more conservative numbers are 55 % of it actually comes from five countries and 70 % comes from 10 countries.

Speaker 1 (11:32)
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (11:33)
where

the plastic really reaches the ocean. And, you know, approximately 80 % of that comes from rivers. So trying  understand that flow and recognizing that while there may be, you know, some cigarette butts, plastic bottles, and a lost flip flop on our beaches, I don't want  minimize that. There's kids playing in ankle deep plastic in beaches and other parts of the world, primarily in Southeast Asia.

Speaker 1 (11:57)
I was going  ask you if you could list some of those countries that you mentioned there were five top ones.

Speaker 2 (12:04)
The top five, depending on the list, is China, the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brazil comes up in the top five or top 10, depending on the list. China and the Philippines were primarily the largest acceptor or importer of plastic waste for recycling and disposal, but they've stopped doing it now, so it's shifting  Malaysia and some other countries.

Speaker 1 (12:31)
Well, we talked about some of the facts. Let's talk about some of the myths that abound about ocean plastics.

Speaker 2 (12:40)
You know, I give a number of talks and when I ask people where the plastic is in the ocean, they suggest that it's in an island in the middle of the Pacific that you can almost walk across. The truth is that 75 % of ocean plastic is on a shoreline somewhere. Most of the rest of it's in coastal waters. There's no real good number that I would cite, but somewhere between something less than 10 % is actually out in the deep ocean. It kind of disempowers us  think that there's an island of garbage and plastic, because what can you do about that other than hope the

ocean cleanup is going  take care of it for us. But if it's on a beach somewhere, we can find it. If we can find it, we can figure out how it got there and stop the leakages into the environment upstream and up current. And that's where our focus is.

Speaker 1 (13:23)
That's good.

And I want  get more into that in just a second. You did bring up ocean cleanup. What are your thoughts on what buoyant slat is doing?

Speaker 2 (13:32)
It's an ambitious goal  try  clean up the ocean. know we'd put together with a former admiral and some folks before he started doing his work, we did some analysis of doing the very same thing. And we thought it would be too tough  do because the plastic is small, it's too dispersed. I wish him the best of luck. But what I do commend him for is I commend him for the research that he's done and his organization has done is that he has shifted a lot of his efforts  a river intervention, which is a key place.

Speaker 1 (14:01)
Thanks

Speaker 2 (14:02)
in a river before it gets  the ocean, then you've really done something. And we think that's where a lot of the effort should go.

Speaker 1 (14:09)
He's

a young man who's addressed quite a bit of the plastics coming out of these rivers, but it is an even bigger issue that it can't be just boiled down  this will take care of everything. So go ahead and keep using your plastic. That's not going  work. So how is open oceans global addressing some of these issues?

Speaker 2 (14:33)
Let me finish with a couple more facts first. Okay. think the first is that there's a philosophical ideal that we can stop plastic production. That's what the plastic, the environmental groups and the high ambition coalition of countries want  do with the plastic treaty. They want  really cut down plastic production. In the face of that, the projections show that it's going  double and triple in coming decades. And so the challenge is, know, how can you stop it when it's projected, the momentum is going the other

And when it comes  the treaty, of course, that is being blocked by some key plastic producing countries, primarily Russia, Iran.

Saudi Arabia and some of the other Gulf states. And  get that into the treaty, you need everybody  agree. And they're not going  agree. So that's a real challenge. Many of the corporations want  really move a circular economy forward. That's admirable. We should do more recycling. That's a piece of the puzzle. But we're not going  recycle our way out of a problem where, you know, less than 10 % of plastic is recycled now.

So, you know, keep working on that, but that's not going  happen soon. that what that means is plastic still keeps flowing into the ocean year in and year out. The Pew suggests it's 11 million metric tons a year in 2022 that's going  triple or nearly triple by 2040.

Speaker 1 (15:53)
Yeah, so we were talking about some of the myths and some of the facts. Since part of that myth is really about that, what you just touched on, recycling. And a big lawsuit just came out against ExxonMobil. They've been misleading the public for a long time, according  the lawsuit that's been filed. So they too are behind these countries that are going  prevent or want  prevent

A treaty from coming together, is that what I'm hearing you say?

Speaker 2 (16:27)
The plastic producing countries at the treaty level, yes, are going  block any attempt  significantly reduce plastic production.

Speaker 1 (16:35)
And I guess my addition  that, seems like petroleum companies are a big pressure for those countries.

Speaker 2 (16:43)
sure, the economics of it. It's all about politics and economics.

Speaker 1 (16:47)
So why don't we talk now about what OpenOcean's Global is doing? How are you addressing some of these issues about plastics in our oceans?

Speaker 2 (16:57)
One of the things we've been doing is we want  understand what the issues are clearly our focus I see us less as a an environmental group and more as a solutions group. We're interesting in understanding if people go  our website and look at our newsletter, the transition, it's about people and progress in trying  address the ocean plastic issue. So every issue we take a deeper dive on one or two issues that talk about chemicals and plastic, about recycling, about

Why does Coca-Cola continue  package their products in plastic bottles when they just as easily do it in aluminum cans?

Take a look at our website, you'll see a list of the newsletters and the headlines that are in each newsletter are in the clickable link on our webpage. And you know, there's a lot of good information there. We've spent our time every month trying  say what's an issue that we should really dive into this month and do a little bit of work on and provide people with links , you know, real source documents that will be accurate. So we've been doing that. We've also been trying  identify who the people are that are doing the good work in the around the world. So we recognize one

 experts or leaders. In our newsletter, we have a photo and a bio that we ask them  approve. And, you know, it's everything from Ambassador Vias, the chair of the the Plastic Treaty process, , you know,  somebody working on a very admirable project in the local region of their of their world. We look for people with good hearts. These are the people that we think are making a difference in a way that people should know about.

If you looked at our ocean plastic trash map, we've been trying  identify places around the world where there's significant plastic on beaches on a regular basis. And we have a picture of where those, you know, you go on the map, can click on the icon and it, a picture comes up with a little bit of background of what that's all about.

Speaker 1 (18:50)
I'm glad you brought that up because that is an incredible resource for people  see the big picture. And how did you compile all that data?

Speaker 2 (19:02)
Well, we it's day after day. Some of it a little bit was done by citizen science, but it's just been online research, trying  find images and on the web and reading reports and seeing people talking about a beach here, an island there and just trying  come by just like we did with the whale, you know, with the whales entangled in nets along the coast, we're trying  find out where the beaches and other areas are.

are significantly fouled by plastic. One of the interesting things about plastic is it's an international problem, but it's an international problem because of all the local places that are impacted. And if you think about it as 75 % of all ocean plastic is on a beach somewhere or on a coastline.

That's a local issue that the locals have  deal with. It's the accumulation of all of those local issues that make it an international problem. And so that's again, going back  how do we put data together? How do we get people  see that they're not alone in this and that people all around the world are doing the same thing and get them  share solutions in an effective way? So that's where we're aiming.

Speaker 1 (20:12)
was just looking again at your website, openoceans.org, and there is a whole list of solutions people are doing around the world. I know India is doing one approach called refillable, and they're taking your existing containers and they drive by your homes with all the different products that you can refill.

And, but there is in, where was it? Tsungai watch.

Speaker 2 (20:43)
They're kind of our heroes in a way because they understand and have done what we think needs  be done all around the world. These are three siblings in Bali surfing in plastic and they hated it. So they started  do beach cleanups in Bali and they started  realize that the plastic was coming from the rivers. So they formed Sungai Watch and now they've got, you know, they're in a hundred rivers. I think they've got almost a hundred, I forget the number, a hundred employees that are actually cleaning those rivers on a

basis, but they didn't stop there. They said, how's it getting into the rivers? And they recognized and then it seems hard  believe in the United States, but in Indonesia, there's many canals running down  the streams that run by people's houses. They literally don't have any trash collection systems. They literally throw plastic out of their kitchen window into the canal that goes and ends up on the river or even worse, they go  their bridge and dump it on the bridge into the river. So now they're

doing training programs in the villages  say, you can fish and swim in your river again, but here's what you have  do  do that. Right. And then they're taking the plastic, they collect the part that's, that can be recycled and reused and they're, making high-end furniture out of it that will be sold  folks that can afford that kind of thing  help fund and part fund some of their efforts. But I think that's the, that mechanism of looking upstream and looking up current and say, where did that plastic come from?

we stop it from getting  the ocean? Then how do we stop it from getting into the river? Then how do we stop it from getting into the environment at all? And it's that new kind of thinking  do that. There's things Coca-Cola can do clearly. I mean, as I already said, I don't know why they don't use aluminum cans.

They're willing  take the PR hit of being one of the worst polluters of plastic in the world and instead of switching  aluminum cans and they already have that supply chain. So, you know, yes, it would probably cost a little bit more money, but for what it would accomplish, it's amazing. But anyway, the Soon Guy Watch folks are really, really, I really admire them.

Speaker 1 (22:51)
just wonder about the Coca-Cola thing. Do you think tariffs on the aluminum could be influencing their decision?

Speaker 2 (22:59)
Actually, in our most recent newsletter, the article that we read about in Plastics News, which is a really well-done publication, says that they can switch back and forth between plastic and aluminum at will, and they'll probably just switch  U.S. aluminum providers.

Speaker 1 (23:15)
Let's go back  the solutions list again because there are also some manufacturers who are coming up with better solutions. And one of them, I don't know quite how  pronounce it, but it starts out like it's not plastics, but it's not plog.

Speaker 2 (23:31)
Yeah, NAPLA, yeah. They've got a seaweed-based product that is ostensibly biodegradable that they can make packaging materials from. yeah, they've won a number of awards.

Speaker 1 (23:34)
Tell us a little bit about that one.

And they're out of the UK and they're doing a number of things like even just the  go boxes from restaurants. They've come up with a great solution for that. And also other things like these little pods that you throw into your washer or your dishwasher. And then also with drinks for sport drinks, there's something that they have that addresses that issue too.

So I think these are novel and innovative approaches  the major problem of the source of all the plastics.

Speaker 2 (24:26)
A lot of good thinking out there and trying  do things. I think one of the hard things is  differentiate between what I call a science project and what's something that actually can be scalable and can be put into practice. Science projects are those kinds of things where you know there's been a number of them that we've figured out how  make bacteria eat plastic. And okay, well that's good enough but...

Speaker 1 (24:39)
scalable.

Speaker 2 (24:51)
where are they gonna eat that plastic? Are you gonna dump it in the rivers? You're gonna dump it in the, how are you gonna get them  eat the plastic? And it's, how is that actually gonna operate? And I just read an article this morning about microplastics that the bacteria in the ocean eat. If they eat one kind, it stays in the same form when the bacteria discharge it out, but another kind, breaks down into smaller nanoparticles that are even worse. It's really trying  differentiate between can that really work

how can it work versus something that, know, good science don't object  the science, but how is it really gonna be implemented?

Speaker 1 (25:28)
I'm sure you've heard of what's happening out of Japan with the Riken Center. They're the ones that came up with a biodegradable plastic-like material that's able  fully break down in seawater. And right around the UN treaty when it didn't continue, when it stalled, but the new plastics are created by combining two ionic monomers.

Speaker 2 (25:33)
Which one is that?

Yeah, came out in the last week, I think, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:57)
and that form cross-linked salt bridges. And that provides strength and flexibility, but they also found that in soil, the sheets of the new plastic degraded completely over the course of 10 days. In the meantime, when it dissolved and it dispersed into the soil, phosphorus and nitrogen, similar  fertilizer. So I don't know how scalable it is. I don't know how sustainable, but it sounds like it's

a possible solution in the manufacturing process.

Speaker 2 (26:28)
It's interesting. think the breakdown part, there's a plus and minus  the breakdown part, just as we just talked about, you know, the bacteria that are eating plastic, you know, what happens after it breaks down? Because it breaks down in the ocean is what's in the ocean. Is that a good thing? Maybe it is. And then, you know, I love that it broke down in 10 days of soil because a number of the products that

list themselves as compostable, they're compostable, but only under completely different, you can't put them in regular compost. They have  be in certain high heat conditions that don't exist in our current waste management system. you know, you've , you know, just because it says compostable doesn't mean you can throw it in the garden, right?

Speaker 1 (27:11)
That is very true. And I want  go back  your website again, because this is a great resource for a lot of people  take a look at a lot of the solutions that are happening around the world. mean, one of the reasons we started doing this podcast alone last September is  try  find some of the positive things that people are doing  address some of the critical issues that are facing us today. I mean, we tend  get a little bit overwhelmed and a lot of us just want  shut down.

And then we hear about, look at what these people are doing and what these people are doing. And it begins  lift you up and you begin  think, well, maybe I could participate in a small way. And that's why we wanted  bring podcast episodes together that is shared on radio as well that helps people hear about these positive things. And on your website solutions list, it's quite long.

You've been gathering a lot of information from around the world as well as getting, and I wanted  offer this too in the solutions category for everyone  think about. You've opened up your data mapping  citizen scientists. They can actually participate and share information with you just like people that do whale watching do with Happy Whale. They contribute information  help the data get more completed. So I wanted you  talk a little bit about

how citizen scientists could get involved and maybe some of the other solutions there too.

Speaker 2 (28:46)
Yeah, thank you. Our ocean plastic map does have a number of places around the world that have been fouled by plastic, but we do have also a link  a map-based form where you can put a dot on a map and say, this is beach X here. It's fouled by plastic. You can upload a picture. We'll put a link  a picture in there so that you can show us what it looks like. And there's a couple of simple questions you can ask that will allow us  better understand what's going on in that beach. And then when you put that in, automatically

uploads  our map as a little red dot and then we when we see a new little red dots come in we check them out and make sure they're verifiable and do a little research on them and say thank you.

Speaker 1 (29:29)
I think that's fantastic. We know a few citizen scientists just here in our little local community of Mendocino County and Sonoma counties on the North coast that are tracking what's happening in the ocean  whales and seals like my co-hosts co-producers are doing and who provide that data  other organizations like NOAA and other organizations that are helping  address everything from climate 

Plastics and right now our focus today is really a little bit more on plastics because that has become such a big issue and it is a top issue for a number of reasons because it affects the marine mammals in the oceans One of the things I've seen on that octo group mail list is Information about how it is affecting the seals and all the marine life in the oceans

what they're finding when they do these examinations of these sea creatures and how much there is, you know, inside of these marine mammals. Can you talk a little bit about that right now, about the data that you found, how it's affecting the marine life, and then what other data you may have on how large a picture this is?

Speaker 2 (30:48)
Yeah, I think there's a couple of myths there that  clear up that too, there's clearly significant impacts on marine life that mistake plastic of various sorts for a food source or they get entangled in it. Some of the images that we've used  illustrate that are, I think probably less than perfect. I think there's one you've probably seen of the seahorse with a Q-tip in its tail. Yeah.

probably the only seahorse in the world that has had a Q-tip on its tail. It does okay for awareness. And then there's a sea turtle that has a straw on its nose. I don't how that turtle got that straw on its nose, but I doubt there are many and that he may be the only one. And it's tragic that it happened  him. At least he was able  be saved. the real...

The real problems are, you see the albatrosses on Midway Island that have died and have, know, that have multiple kinds of plastic when they open them up and the indications that, you know, whales that are, filter feeder kind of whales that, you know, open up and bring it in. So there's clearly, clearly an impact of some importance  marine life. Even back in the 1980s, when we were first working on this kind of thing, you know, there were seagulls with six pack rings on their heads and

line monofilament nets on the nexus seals. the irony about this, Leanne, is that this was in the 1980s, mid 1980s, we were saying reduce, recycle, you know.

Speaker 1 (32:19)
I remember.

Speaker 2 (32:21)
we didn't make that message up. That was a consistently understood message in the 1980s and it hasn't gotten us anywhere. know, yes, we should still recycle. Yes, we should reduce our use. Yes, we should reuse where possible, but the amount of plastic produced, the waste and what's going into the ocean has continued  increase year on year.

Speaker 1 (32:40)
Can you tell us what some of those numbers are about plastics in the oceans right now?

Speaker 2 (32:47)
Yeah, I don't have the number on top of my head for how much is in there, but it's from, know, plastic flows are expected  nearly triple from 11 million tons  29 million tons by 2040. The interesting one is that there's already 109 million metric tons of plastic in rivers and lakes right now that even if we could stop all for plastic production today, it's still going  be flowing down  the ocean for years  come. global plastic production is estimated  increase from 445

49 million metric tons in 2020  1.23 billion metric tons by 2060. So you see these numbers are just huge. The amount of plastic waste generated worldwide is expected  triple by 2060. mean, those are some of the numbers and they kind of make you lose hope.

Speaker 1 (33:38)
Yes, it does.

Speaker 2 (33:40)
But you know  really solve it we have  understand where it's impacting us, where it's impacting people. It's another whole issue with human health that we're finding about chemicals and plastic. There's 4,000 plus different kinds of chemicals found in plastic or 16,000 and 4,000 of them are known  be hazardous. You know which of those are hazardous? What should we really be doing about that? I think the science is still emerging on that. There was a

A kind of another interesting story, and maybe you saw it about the black plastic used  make spatulas and other kind of kitchenware. The story came out and it caused a number of people, people...

Speaker 1 (34:13)
Yes.

Speaker 2 (34:18)
I knew Colin and said, hey, we're getting rid of our plastic spatulas now. But then it turned out that a week later, the analysis of the data was that the original researchers had made a mistake by a factor of a hundred, I think. And so that what was really on the edge of being harmful  humans was really a hundred times less. I'm sure black plastic spatulas took a hit for better or for worse, but the facts weren't true as they came out.

And the same thing happened with the original research on plastic and rivers. There was a study that estimated that 10 rivers carried 90 % of the world's plastic  the ocean. But what they had failed  do in that study was recognize that there are dams on a lot of those rivers. So the algorithm they used  estimate it didn't account for the fact that a lot of upstream flows never made it  the ocean.

Speaker 1 (35:10)
You also brought up something that when you talk about the data being either misread or misinterpreted, people have a hard enough time, it seems like these days, even believing science at all. So that doesn't help when we're trying  use science  show what's happening and what maybe some of the solutions might be. So that's an issue when that does happen. Also another thing that

occurred  me when you were talking about the amount of plastics in our body. The other thing that we've heard is the amount could be like a credit card in our brain, a plastic. I don't know if you've heard that one, but that's not very comforting  think about the type of plastics that might be in our bodies. And then a third thing that occurred  me too, the use of plastics too in the creation of our

residential buildings, our commercial buildings, the amount that's used throughout a community. And when there's a fire like the LA fires, that's so combustible. And then that you were talking about the ingredients in plastic. Well, that gets into the air. So if there's anything I just said that you want  respond , I would appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (36:33)
You know, the LA fires really made that really made that case. And, know, here you've got all these homes and you know, the what's the article I read talked about the polyester cover of your sofa, you know, the foam, the cover is plastic. Maybe it's got a wooden frame, but maybe the glue for that frame, if it's composite wood is made from a polymer based glue. And then they kind of went on through the whole house, you know, the vinyl floors are plastic. right. If you've got vinyl floor and so when a house

 burn it used  be, you wooden cotton, you know, in the old days and now now it's a high intensity fire fueled by by this by plastic and I

Speaker 1 (37:13)
I have 

say I myself chose instead of putting down wood floors, I put in a wood looking vinyl floors. That's what a lot of people do  save on cost. And that's just one thing.

Speaker 2 (37:27)
Yep, and they're well advertised as something  really not only save on cost, but they're easier  maintain and all of that stuff. So there's a good marketing campaign around it. And there are standards for what kind of volatile aerosols go into from those floors. But yeah, you have  wonder.

Speaker 1 (37:45)
And then there's also 3D printing that has become so big these days. And they talk about all these buildings that you can print from plastics.

Speaker 2 (37:54)
I haven't seen buildings from plastic, maybe you have. I've seen 3D printing concrete buildings from...

Speaker 1 (38:00)
Okay, well I had

seen some that were out of plastics type materials, but concrete would be...

Speaker 2 (38:05)
the

day for the first time where it was foam plastic they poured the concrete in between the pillars but the exterior and interior were foam.

Speaker 1 (38:15)
Uh-huh. Well, it seems like there's so much that needs  be addressed and it seems like a problem that is indefatigable cannot be fixed. But we want  talk again about what your organization is doing and how can some of these things be addressed?

Speaker 2 (38:36)
Our focus is  try  keep it simple and understandable. As I think I mentioned, when you realize that there's only three ways plastic can end up on your beach. One is it's local litter, you know, just somebody just dropping stuff on the beach or blown on the road from an adjacent road or the adjacent parking lot. That's one. The second is fishing gear, ropes and nets and buoys washing up on your beach. Well, that's a pretty good indication that that is coming from offshore fishing. And then the third is rivers and water flow.

storm drains and really water sources. You know, if you're not having fishing gear, you've eliminated one. So then you ask yourself, is this from people just using the beach yesterday? And if that's true, and that's where the problem is, is you, you know, you've got enforcement regulations, education, maybe it's, you know, more trash cans and more trash pickup. I don't want  oversimplify it, but once you know the source, you can start  say, well, what can I do about it? And if it's, it coming out of a storm drains? One of the key

things that we've done and we haven't released it publicly yet but it's so we've developed a prototype toolkit and predictive model so that people can literally go upstream on a visual map from their beach.

and try  figure out where that plastic might have come from. Is it a manufacturing company that doesn't have their big dumpsters picked up regularly so they fall off? Is it from a place where people gather a lot and it ends up washing into the storm drain and down the beach? Or is it from a river? If your flow is flowing north  south and the rivers  the south, it didn't come from that river because the flows would take it the other way. if...

It's flowing from north  south and there's a river upstream and north. Maybe the plastic came from that river. So the idea is  say we're standing on our beach. Let's figure out go upstream and up current like the Sungei Watch people did. Where did this come from? And let's one step by step go upstream and up current and say, where's the next source that we can stop it? Can we use one of the

Ocean cleanup, river intervention tools. One of the smaller, is it a smaller river? You're gonna use a smaller river intervention boom. Where can you do it and then keep working upstream until you get  the source and you don't need those booms anymore.

Speaker 1 (40:50)
like this idea a lot. This is a toolkit that OpenOcean has on

Speaker 2 (40:56)
We have built it and we're doing some refinements  it now with some of our partners and we're going  be prototyping it in a country in Latin America here in the near future. And hopefully it'll be something that can be used around the world and help all those little red dots on our map. We'll be able  use this tool and start  say, is where our, this is where our plastic came from.

Speaker 1 (41:11)
Yeah

This is exactly what I was thinking of. was thinking of your map with all those red dots and people having an actual kit that could help them analyze this data  figure out, okay, we found this, where did it come from? And that reminded me of what Marcus Erickson of Five Gyres had mentioned when he took a trip down the Mississippi. And he was trying  get some of the organizations  take better care of where their products ended up, but

they didn't feel like they were the source. So he figured out that he actually had  track back where do all these plastics come from, who's the organization. And this is a tool that you have created in the process of testing that I think could actually one day be of real benefit in gathering that data.

Speaker 2 (42:10)
think so. Marcus has done some of this work too and much of the data has been, it's been valuable data, has been  see what's the brand, what product is this plastic from? And that's been valuable data. It's really helped us identify who the corporations are. But one of the outcomes from that is we ask people, where do you think this plastic came from? We want them  say, well, it came from that river or it came from, and they say it came from Coca-Cola.

from Philip Morris or it came from some other. And it didn't know which of where did it how did it get there? And that's a different question of.

Speaker 1 (42:42)
Happy.

Little different question, yes, definitely. Tell us about how you do that data mapping, the role that mapping plays. I think we've just been covering what that role could be.

Speaker 2 (42:50)
So.

I think you were talking about probably some of the work I've done not only in oceans but in other areas where you use facilitated mapping, which in a sense this is where we try  map the different perspectives of a community or of a problem so that everybody's role in that can be visualized on the map and then they can see how the part that they play in it and it allows for problem solving. That's really the basis of it.

Speaker 1 (43:28)
OpenOcean's Global is your nonprofit organization. Where do you see things heading going forward this year and maybe for the next five years?

Speaker 2 (43:41)
Well, a couple of things. I think the plastic treaty is not going  end up with what the environmental community and the high-ambition countries want. I think there may be some guidelines that come out of it on how  better design plastic products so they're more recyclable. And I think some of that will happen. I think there will be probably in the treaty recognition that chemicals of concern are some problem that need  have further exploration. And there may be some consensus on that.

There may be something of a token nature about plastic production, but it's more likely  be an analysis rather than any kind of a cut on plastic production. I just don't see that happening given the...

given the powers  be that it would be impacted by that. I think there will be continue  be things like in certain places like California has, or just be 54, legislation that's going  reduce some of the single use plastics. And that's good for California.

But it's not going  help much in, you know, in the Philippines or Vietnam where they may not have that legislation because they don't have the enforcement  stop it. I mean, there's been some developing countries that have passed some pretty significant legislation banning plastic bags and those kinds of things, but do they have the enforcement  stop it? I think it's going  be slow. I think one of the things we didn't talk about is how poor recycling is in the United States.

has probably the best plastic and aluminum recycling processes in the world. The government has a tax on plastic containers and aluminum containers. It's a bottle bill, not unusual. We have it in California and other states, but they've also done two other things. One is that they've got the bottle bill, then they have a tax on how much is recycled.

So the corporations fund a nonprofit that guides them on how  design their products so that they can maximize recycling. So consumers get their money back from their bottle bill. The designs are better because of the nonprofit. And when the recycling rate reaches 95%, there's no tax on the corporations for that production of that product. And as a result,

Norway recycles 95 % of its plastic pet bottles.

Speaker 1 (46:09)
95%.

Speaker 2 (46:12)
We've heard, although somebody has disputed this, that even India even recycles over 90 % of its pet bottles, the plastic bottles that come in water and folks and stuff like that, completely different way. They have a trash picker society, culture that goes into the landfills and literally picks out those bottles, gives them  a broker, and the broker takes them  a recycler. And it's lucrative enough that they achieve a 90 % recycling rate according  least some sources. But you look at the

Look at many of the states in the United States. So we know that the pet bottles are the most highly recyclable plastic of all. And there are many states that recycle less than 5%. And so you ask yourself, how can that be? In some of the states in the South, I know people have told me they have  drive 40 miles  their first recycling, potential recycling location.

There isn't recycling pickup. There's not, and it seems like we do a heck of a lot better job in the United States of just doing, it doesn't harm the plastic industry. It doesn't harm the fossil fuel industry. just have a management system  take care of our plastics. mean, that's the recycling is the bad news. The good news is that we do have pretty good waste management in the United States. So that's one place where we excel.

Norway has a machine, a company that builds a machine and you just put your bottles in the machine and I think you get a credit or money back out. So it's right in the storefront.

Speaker 1 (47:42)
So this is something that could be implemented here in the United States too, you would think.

Speaker 2 (47:47)
And that seems  me something that the plastic producers and the corporations that use plastic products could really get behind. And if they would, if they wanted  at least improve that part of it, but I haven't seen a real movement for that. You know, it seems like something they could take charge of and have good benefits for themselves.

Speaker 1 (48:04)
There are a lot of stores, you know, that offer the bulk bins that you can take your own containers in and refill them. I don't know how reasonable or feasible that's going  be for a lot of people  actually remember  bring those containers in, but a lot of people are doing that. They can refill their rice or their flour or their detergent right there at the store. I brought up the example earlier.

from your solutions link on the OpenOcean's website that was really interesting in that India actually has a vehicle that drives around and helps  bring these products  people's doors. Now don't know what the impact would be on that vehicle unless it's electric or hybrid or something, but there are solutions. So do you think that's something that's feasible too for people  try  do?

Speaker 2 (48:57)
think it'll play a role. think there are there are refillables. There's a grocery store here in San Diego, a small chain called Jimbo's that has a has a refillable section. You know, there's kind of boutique, some boutique stores that are trying  get started that offer refills of, you know, soap and shampoo and, you know, those kinds of things. I think it has some merit and it has some possibilities. It's you know, you have  ask yourself, is the consumer going  actually carry those  the store and do that? And if yes, maybe three or four

but maybe there's a special basket container that can hold 12 and you can do all kinds of products in it. But it's again, something that's, I'm glad people are pursuing it. They're doing it with, I think it's in Argentina, there's a company that's doing it. There's some other places that are having the mobile ones that go around, which I think is more feasible than taking the bottles  the store.

Speaker 1 (49:53)
Another good idea would be is if you could just, whoever wanted , they could bring in their containers and contribute it  this one area where it gets recycled, cleaned, and then they offer you a choice of your own containers and then you could fill them right there. Then you wouldn't have  remember  bring your own containers in. It's hard enough for me  remember  bring my bags into the store, but.

Speaker 2 (50:16)
You know, you want

 really go back in history. mean, it's you think about way back in the 50s and even the 60s. You know, I remember I had a job in the 60s in a grocery store. People would bring back their glass bottles. That's how you got a Coke or that's how you got Pepsi and 7-Up. We're going  organize them into a into in a wooden crate so that when the 7-Up guy came, he could pick that, take his bottles back. And you got that's just the way it was done. There weren't aluminum cans. There weren't plastic bottles.

We did all this without these some of these containers in the past and even even there was a transition into aluminum and then aluminum pop tops didn't used  stay on the can they used  come off. So they would end up on the in the beach and on the street and people walking barefoot in the summer would cut their feet. So then they created a pop top that

that stayed on the can. Right. I haven't seen it here yet that I can recall but we were in London last fall and all the bottles there they're required  keep the plastic cap on the top of the bottle. It's got a little, you unscrew it but then it holds it stays on the bottle it doesn't go away.

Speaker 1 (51:22)
I like that.

Speaker 2 (51:24)
It varies from place  place, pretty consistently. Cigarette butts and plastic butts. Yes. Top, top, know, sometimes more than half of the plastic collected of the top 10 anyway are those items.

Speaker 1 (51:36)
That's what the California

Coastal Cleanup fellow was telling us about too. Cigarette butts, plastic caps from bottles. Yes. And there's one thing I wanted  talk about too, is that it just occurred  me, you know, the scare that we had over Tylenol back in the day, it started this whole adding extra levels of security on all the bottles and then extra plastic wrap around that.

Speaker 2 (51:46)
Yeah, Evan.

Speaker 1 (52:07)
So there's that issue of people not wanting products tampered with. So there's extra levels of plastic.

Speaker 2 (52:17)
Well, and there's also, I know in the grocery store now, if you'll recall for a long time, until not too long ago, we used  get eggs in a sort of a cardboard kind of carton, right? And now I know in some of the grocery stores I've seen, they're in plastic containers. I get it. They're sealable. You can drop them and the eggs don't break and they don't get wet and fall apart. But then they proudly label them as recycled plastic.

And I said, yeah, but you didn't have any plastic at all before. Yes, you can make an argument for it and say, it's recycled plastic, but I think we were probably better off the other way.

Speaker 1 (52:51)
Exactly.

Well, Carl, we're coming  the end of our hour here, and I want  thank you very much for coming on today  talk with us here at Resilient Earth Radio and podcast. And if you would give us an idea of maybe some of the other things that you're involved with as well outside of OpenOcean's Global.

Speaker 2 (53:19)
Well, one of the things I do is I've had little hiatus the last two months, but I have a publication on Substack called The Net Report, in which I try , in a very factual way, kind of address what's going on in climate, the future of work in the economy, the political divide, and health. And it's a little eclectic. We try  have fun with it too. the idea is  take things that you might not see on the headlines of the news and the

newspaper that we come across our desk and try  add some depth and insight  what's going on in what we call a changing world.

That's one of the things. you know, it's, OpenOcean is a passion  the heart for me. I've mostly got a consulting firm and we work helping organizations think through tough questions that they're dealing with. So, you know, we've had that for a long time and it's been good, interesting work.

Speaker 1 (54:21)
especially in today's political environment with the layoffs and the budget cuts and it seems quite a bit of chaos right now and people are struggling  try  find their footing.

Speaker 2 (54:36)
Yes, yes. And it's having an impact on plastic work too. There's a collaboration of the State Department and the Ocean Conservancy, the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, called EPIC. They came together  do some work around the world around plastic and that primary source of funding was the State Department. So that's been frozen right now. So those organizations are having  struggle with that, figure out what their next steps are. So it's, you know, it's

It's a challenging time for sure.

Speaker 1 (55:08)
Very challenging time. if someone wants  reach out  you, how would they do that?

Speaker 2 (55:15)
For OpenOcean, they can go  info at openocean.org. It's probably the best way  do it. And my consulting firm is Net Strategies, info at netstrategies, N-E-T-T, strategies.com.

Speaker 1 (55:29)
Well, I'm glad we got connected through the Octo group. Thank you for joining us today, Carl.

Speaker 2 (55:34)
My pleasure. Thanks for reaching out. was a delightful hour with you. Thanks, Lee.

Speaker 1 (55:39)
You're welcome.

Thanks for listening  the Resilient Earth Podcast where we talk about critical issues and positive actions for our planet. Resilient Earth is produced by Planet-Centric Media, a 501c3 nonprofit, and Seastorm Studios Inc., located on the rugged north Sonoma coast of northern California.

I'm Leanne Lindsay, producer and host along with co-hosts co-producers Scott and Tree Mercer of Mindanoma Whale and Seal Study located on the South Mendocino and North Sonoma coasts.

The music for this podcast is by Eric Olloman, an international composer, pianist, and writer living in the Sea Ranch. Discover more of his music, animations, ballet, stage, and film work at ericallaman.com.

You can find Resilient Earth on Spotify, Apple, and Amazon podcasts, iHeartRadio, YouTube, SoundCloud, and wherever you find your podcasts. Please support us by subscribing or donating  our cause.